# "Hands up, Don't shoot!" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048 "2014-12-01T16:57:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/81 "2014-12-03T16:36:19Z")
double post ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/82 "2014-12-03T17:15:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The kid didn’t wave anything when the cops were there, and it’s strange that this seems irrelevant to you. > > Supposedly the dispatcher told them a black male roughly 20 years old was seen walking around the area, waving a gun around. > > When the cops came on the scene, the only person there was a black child sitting calmly in a gazebo NOT waving a gun around. > > So here’s the question: why did they assume this kid was the subject of the 911 call? He could’ve been anyone, right? If no attempt was made to verify the kid was this suspect, the cops were clearly in the wrong for concluding he was. Whether he waved his toy around minutes before doesn’t matter, because 1) waving a toy around is not a crime and 2) the cops didn’t see him waving his toy around. > > Swap Rice out with any black male and the outcome would’ve likely been identical. That is why this is scary. I’m speaking to why 911 was called in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/83 "2014-12-03T17:29:10Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > I’m speaking to why 911 was called in the first place. Okay. Lets talk about that. Do you think a 12 year old white boy playing cops and robbers by himself, in front of park and recreations, would have likely triggered a 911 call? And do you think cops would have assumed a 12 year old white boy sitting alone, empty-handed in a gazebo, was a gun-brandishing 20 year old white guy? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/84 "2014-12-03T18:00:57Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Only, again, you actually _know_ it’s a “kid” with a nonlethal weapon, or, if you are pretty confident that your position/distance/circumstance makes it extremely unlikely his first shot will be effective. The “kid” part seems obvious from the video and the picture of him I saw in some article. And no, I was assuming here that I thought the gun was real (otherwise I wouldn’t have written “you’re going to harm someone”). A 12 yo with a gun is a danger because he might fire the gun accidentally. But the risk that he actually wants to kill you, a random stranger, is incredibly low. So it only warrants stern talking, not opening fire yourself. And this is assuming that you know for sure that the gun is real, which is a strange assumption when talking of a 12 yo. Yes, again, someone is going to say “but there are cases of 12 yo killing people deliberatly”. Yes, there are. And there are many more cases of spouses being stabbed to death, for instance. Despite this, I doubt that you would shoot preemptively your SO if s/he was entering the room with a knife, for instance. An armed reasonnable adult wouldn’t have opened fire, even if he had seen the kid with a “gun” in hand. As you can see at the beginning of the video, some guy stayed for a while while the kid was waving and pointing his gun. Obviously, he wasn’t fearing for his life anymore than I would have. And the police officer didn’t even fire because the kid had a weapon in hand (which I already would have found inexcusable), but immediately because the kid moved his hand. That’s beyond the pale. Whatever his reasons for opening fire (extremely fearful or stressed individual, extremely poor training, wet dreams about shooting dead someone), he demonstrated he had no business being in the police. He lacked the judgement I would expect from any adult, let alone from a LEO. Although the number of people who state they find legitimate to open fire in such a circumstance gives me pause. I hope they would act more sanely and responsibly if they found themselves in such a situation. Being terrified of 12 yo kids isn’t healthy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/85 "2014-12-03T18:09:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Although the number of people who state they find legitimate to open fire in such a circumstance gives me pause. I hope they would act more sanely and responsibly if they found themselves in such a situation. Being terrified of 12 yo kids isn’t healthy. This is the part that’s weirdest to me as well. 12-year olds with an object that might be a gun must be much more likely to have a non-deadly-firearm in hand than an adult with such an object. I doubt statistics exist for such a thing, but if we were to survey all the 12-year olds in America who currently had something shaped like a gun on their person, what ratio would the toy (or non-lethal gun, like Airsoft or BB gun) to real, deadly firearm be? 100 to 1? 1000 to 1? This is the kind of thing that would go into my mind – would I rather not shoot a kid with what is probably a toy, and risk some very small chance that it’s a real gun and the kid tries to shoot me, or would I rather shoot a kid? I think the high risk of living with knowing that I shot a kid with a toy would be far, far worse than the presumably very small risk of being shot by a kid who probably has a toy and not a gun. It’s hard to imagine the type of person who would choose to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/86 "2014-12-03T18:19:39Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay. Lets talk about that. Do you think a 12 year old white boy playing cops and robbers by himself, in front of park and recreations, would have likely triggered a 911 call? > > And do you think cops would have assumed a 12 year old white boy sitting alone, empty-handed in a gazebo, was a gun-brandishing 20 year old white guy? I know what you want me to say, but honestly, I have no idea. People have different reactions / sensitivities to things. The gun _did_ look real. I’ve had cops come to my house because, while taking some friends home one summer morning, we had two extra pieces of gum and my friend who lived in that neighborhood saw two kids walking down the street and offered it to them. Apparently, someone called the cops and reported that I was trying to sell drugs to kids and / or abduct them. When he came to my house, the police officer floated both theories. I had to show the two sticks of gum to prove that I was telling the truth. (The story is actually amusing in retrospect, but not so for a 16 year old who was left home alone for a week, for the first time) When I was around 12 or so, our house alarm went off and when the police eventually pulled up to respond, I opened the door holding a bat, while I was wearing pajamas. They were still in the street, a good 40 feet away, at least, and they yelled at me to drop my weapon. Over Thanksgiving, while discussing this, my mom said that she thinks she recalls them with their weapons drawn. But, given the context of the discussion, I’m not so sure I believe a recollection from two decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/87 "2014-12-03T18:28:39Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > too bad they didn’t stop to determine the difference. Just admit you defenders see black people as inherently scary and we can stop having these threads. If you believe black people are inherently scary, that’s your call. If you think you can stop having these threads, well, good luck tilting at that windmill. Meanwhile, back at the thread - The pistol in question appears to be a Colt 1911 Target that fires airsoft brand soft pellets. > **[American police release CCTV footage of 12-year-old brandishing replic](https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/540895/Tamir-Rice-Police-Shot-Dead-Over-Replica-Gun)** > > POLICE in America have released CCTV footage of a black 12-year-old boy brandishing a replica gun moments before he was shot dead by two white officers. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/88 "2014-12-03T18:41:33Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > So if he was a white 18 year old with a concealed carry permit he would have been shot too? When has this ever happened? Or is it just black folks who might have a concealed carry permit that are allowed to be shot on sight? The kid wasn’t allowed to even try to prove his innocence. He was gunned down instantly before he even had a chance to do anything. Oh except drop his hands near his waist as he fell to the ground dead. Rice didn’t fall to the ground dead. I believe it’s been reported that Rice died at the hospital. I have no idea what would have happened if Rice had been a white 18 year old with a concealed carry permit. Since you brought up this scenario, can I assume you have some background information on the issue? I don’t know if it’s legal, in this jurisdiction, for a 12yr old to be carrying OR pointing an airsoft pistol at random passersby? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/89 "2014-12-03T18:44:55Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > I guess there’s no chance the kid was play acting stuff from Hollywood movies - copying all those much celebrated action heroes? Ya just can’t trust anything that comes out of Hollyweird. OTOH, uber-violent video games are just like historical documentaries. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/90 "2014-12-03T18:50:24Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > I’m speaking to why 911 was called in the first place. Because some moron was pointing a gun at random passersby. People have been known to become concerned when people POINT guns at them and concerned people call the police. The obvious solution to these situation is for people to stop calling 9-1-1. :rolleyes: Let the bad guys take over the neighborhoods. :rolleyes: What could possibly go wrong? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/91 "2014-12-03T18:52:45Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If you believe black people are inherently scary, that’s your call. > > If you think you can stop having these threads, well, good luck tilting at that windmill. > > Meanwhile, back at the thread - The pistol in question appears to be a Colt 1911 Target that fires airsoft brand soft pellets. > > [Police release CCTV of Tamir Rice holding replica gun before killed | World | News | Express.co.uk](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/540895/Tamir-Rice-Police-Shot-Dead-Over-Replica-Gun) Could you take someones eye out with that thing? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/92 "2014-12-03T18:53:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If you believe black people are inherently scary, that’s your call. > > If you think you can stop having these threads, well, good luck tilting at that windmill. > > Meanwhile, back at the thread - The pistol in question appears to be a Colt 1911 Target that fires airsoft brand soft pellets. > > [Police release CCTV of Tamir Rice holding replica gun before killed | World | News | Express.co.uk](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/540895/Tamir-Rice-Police-Shot-Dead-Over-Replica-Gun) If he was white he never would have been shot. Certain folk including lots of cops and some posters see black people as threatening by nature of their blackness. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/93 "2014-12-03T19:16:26Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > If he was white he never would have been shot. Certain folk including lots of cops and some posters see black people as threatening by nature of their blackness. That’s a rather broad statement. When you say “certain folk”, are you including red, yellow, brown, black, and white people in that group? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/94 "2014-12-03T19:20:29Z")
> [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](#): > > Could you take someones eye out with that thing? I have no experience with airsoft pellets but you could beat the crap outta someone with the metal pistol. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/95 "2014-12-03T20:14:17Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > I know what you want me to say, but honestly, I have no idea. People have different reactions / sensitivities to things. The gun _did_ look real. Yes, but a reasonable person would appreciate the full context before jumping to the worse conclusion possible. Boys like to play with toy guns. This is a fact that is obvious to anyone who has ever been a kid in the U.S. So if I’m walking down the street and a kid pops out of the bushes with _any_ object aimed at me, I’m going to assume it’s a toy that’s he pretending to shoot me with. Doesn’t matter what it actually looks like, because I’m not going to be studying it with eagle eyes. My brain will register it as a toy because 1) it’s a boy holding it and 2) it usually gonna be a boy who is very much acting like a boy, not a criminal. Did you look at the video? You can see the kid going up to a pedestrian and pointing the toy at them as they walked by. What’s obvious is that this pedestrian didn’t run away. They pressed along at the same pace as they’d been moving in. No obvious sign of fear or concern, which suggests they pegged the kid correctly, even if he annoyed them. Even the guy who put in the call to 911 is seen on the tape loitering in the gazebo, watching the kid from a short distance. If he actually thought it was a loaded gun being brandished in a threatening manner, why would he choose to stand there with his thumb up his butt? Because he knew the kid was playing. Adults don’t play around in the street with fake guns–kids do. Since he was capable of surmising the kid was “probably a juvenile” and expressed doubt on the call that the gun was real, he knew enough to know there wasn’t anything to worry about. Getting hung up on how real the gun looked is to look at things through an autistic lens. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/96 "2014-12-03T20:28:10Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > …the problem isn’t cops shooting shooting black people because cops are racist. The problem is cops shooting people (of any race) prematurely because too many cops are a) **scared** , b) trained to shoot instantly (shoot/no-shoot training drills), c) view all non-cops as threats (us vs. **them** mentality), and d) constantly repeat the “I’m going home safely to my family” mantra amongst themselves. > …the cops-shooting-people problem is far more complicated than race and phony “hands up” nonsense. Do you think that the color of a citizen encountered on the street might factor into an officer’s estimation of his scariness, and them-ness? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/97 "2014-12-03T20:35:28Z")
An organization of black St. Louis police officers is [commending](http://deadspin.com/black-st-louis-cops-organization-commends-rams-players-1666228580) the Rams players who protested with the “hands up, don’t shoot” stance. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/98 "2014-12-03T22:07:40Z")
And now it is being announced that the cop who killed Tamir Rice was found [unfit for duty](http://gawker.com/the-cop-who-killed-tamir-rice-was-found-unfit-for-polic-1666341124) in 2012. Apparently, he was (is?) overly emotional to the point where he could not perform basic training duties. Additionally, he left the Independence, OH, police department because (according to his father) he wanted “more action.” Well, looks like he found it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/99 "2014-12-03T22:25:44Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > Additionally, he left the Independence, OH, police department because (according to his father) he wanted “more action.” Well, looks like he found it. ☹ So not only is the cop is an idiot, but his father is an idiot. Great. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/100 "2014-12-04T02:06:42Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Do you think that the color of a citizen encountered on the street might factor into an officer’s estimation of his scariness, and them-ness? No, because I don’t look at every issue and event through a racist / racial filter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048.md?page=6)