# Hannibal crossing the Alps **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 6, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617 "2017-07-06T15:59:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/1 "2017-07-06T15:59:06Z")
Are there any traces of the crossing- Carthaginian graves, weapons, elephant bones? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/2 "2017-07-06T17:30:15Z")
Not yet. They’ve been arguing about the exact route since classical times and it still remains unsettled. In terms of artifacts it really is serious needle-in-a-haystack territory since you’re talking about a single transit 2,200 years ago. But folks are still working on it. There have even been recent studies published in 2016 exploring fossilized genetic evidence from mud, but so far no smoking gun last I heard. Maybe some day soon. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/3 "2017-07-06T17:31:22Z")
I was about to say that the complete lack of physical evidence has made his exact route a source of employment for historians since antiquity. But then I came across this article. Apparently they did leave some evidence behind, from their behinds: > **[How Hannibal's crossing of the Alps was finally solved by POO](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-hannibals-crossing-alps-finally-7694569)** > > Hannibal led over 90,000 soldiers and 10,000 horses across the Alps - but it was the 37 elephants that left a lasting impression ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/4 "2017-07-06T17:43:36Z")
Right, okay double-checking that article is a fail. It was [horse poop](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/horse-poo-helps-unravel-mystery-hannibals-route-through-alps-180958660/) they found, not far more definitive elephant poop. So no smoking gun yet. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/5 "2017-07-06T17:49:00Z")
I recall reading in several places that people speculated that Mammoth bones found in Europe might have been the remains of Hannibal’s elephants, but a quick search of the internet fails to turn up a primary source for this. I begin to wonder if it might be a pre-urban legend. I did, however, turn up this instead: > [@](#): > > Microbiologists unmask the Hannibal route enigma > Date:April 4, 2016 > > … > > Microbiologists based in the Institute for Global Food Security and School of Biological Sciences at Queen’s University Belfast have recently released results that may have answered one of ancient history’s greatest enigmas: Where did Hannibal cross the Alps? > > … > > For over two thousand years, historians, statesmen and academics have argued about the route Hannibal took across the Alps. Until now, no solid archaeological evidence has been forthcoming. However, this week – publishing on-line in the Journal Archaeometry – Queen’s University’s microbiologist Dr Chris Allen and his international team of colleagues, led by Professor Bill Mahaney (York University, Toronto), have finally provided solid evidence for the most likely transit route that took Hannibal’s forces across the Alps via the Col de Traversette pass (~3000 m). This crossing point was first proposed over a half century ago by the biologist and polymath Sir Gavin de Beer, but has not previously been widely accepted by the academic community. > > Using a combination of microbial metagenome analysis, environmental chemistry, geomorphic and pedological investigation, pollen analyses and various other geophysical techniques, the researchers have shown that a ‘mass animal deposition’ event occurred near the Col de Traversette – that can be directly dated to approximately 2168 cal yr BP, i.e. 218 BC. > > … > Journal Reference: > 1.W. C. Mahaney, C. C. R. Allen, P. Pentlavalli, A. Kulakova, J. M. Young, R. W. Dirszowsky, A. West, B. Kelleher, S. Jordan, C. Pulleyblank, S. O’Reilly, B. T. Murphy, K. Lasberg, P. Somelar, M. Garneau, S. A. Finkelstein, M. K. Sobol, V. Kalm, P. J. M. Costa, R. G. V. Hancock, K. M. Hart, P. Tricart, R. W. Barendregt, T. E. Bunch, M. W. Milner. Biostratigraphic Evidence Relating to the Age-Old Question of Hannibal’s Invasion of Italy, II: Chemical Biomarkers and Microbial Signatures. Archaeometry, 2016; DOI: 10.1111/arcm.12228 > **[Microbiologists unmask the Hannibal route enigma](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160404134205.htm)** > > Microbiologists have recently released results that may have answered one of ancient history's greatest enigmas: Where did Hannibal cross the Alps? The references are: Mahaney, William C., et al. “Biostratigraphic Evidence Relating to the Age‐Old Question of Hannibal’s Invasion of Italy, I: History and Geological Reconstruction.” Archaeometry 59.1 (2017): 164-178. Mahaney, W. C., Allen, C. C. R., Pentlavalli, P., Kulakova, A., Young, J. M., Dirszowsky, R. W., … & O’Reilly, S. (2017). Biostratigraphic Evidence Relating to the Age‐Old Question of Hannibal’s Invasion of Italy, II: Chemical Biomarkers and Microbial Signatures. Archaeometry, 59(1), 179-190. If you wanna read the originals: [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/arcm.12231/full](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/arcm.12231/full) [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/arcm.12228/full](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/arcm.12228/full) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/6 "2017-07-06T17:53:44Z")
And those articles lead you to this overall one from last year: [http://maajournal.com/Issues/2016/Vol16-2/Full9.pdf](http://maajournal.com/Issues/2016/Vol16-2/Full9.pdf) Mahaney, W. C. “THE HANNIBAL ROUTE CONTROVERSY AND FUTURE HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGICAL EXPLORATION IN THE WESTERN ALPS.” Mediterranean Archaeology & Archaeometry 16.2 (2016). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/7 "2017-07-08T01:54:32Z")
Heck, even if they find solid evidence of a Carthaginian army (not holding my breath), maybe it’s Hasdrubal’s. Yup, everyone always seems to forget about the \*second \*Carthaginian army that crossed the Alps. This was in 207 BC, the army was led by Hannibal’s brother Hasdrubal, and it was basically the bizarro version of Hannibal’s trek a decade before (how time flies in PWII, BTW). They jogged across the Alps, no problem at all. Then - spoiler alert - they immediately got their asses handed to them by the Romans, at the Battle of the Metaurus. Hasdrubal’s head was tossed over the walls of Hannibal’s camp, in southern Italy. _There’s_ a message for you to remind you how your war is going. BTW, there’s another thing that no one ever talks about, which concerns Hannibal’s elephants. So I’ll bring it up, because I’m just a dick that way. He’s famous for those elephants, right? But what happened to them, once he had dragged them across rivers and mountains? Were they a superweapon? Nope. Did they play any decisive role in his victories? Nope. Where they even remotely useful? No. They all flipping _died_, apparently from the weather, or malaria, or something. It was a stupid idea to even bring them along. There, I said it. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/8 "2017-07-08T14:58:37Z")
Much too late for edit: Of course, Hasdrubal would (at least presumably) have used the same route as Hannibal, so either way, it would solve that question. Maybe I’m being persnickety and annoying again. I guess I just wanted to talk about Hasdrubal. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/9 "2017-07-08T16:41:05Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > It was a stupid idea to even bring them along. There, I said it. Yeah, from a practical standpoint they were pretty useless yet here we are, still talking about Hannibal and those damned elephants. From a PR standpoint they were genius. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/10 "2017-07-08T21:52:28Z")
I don’t agree concerning the elephants. Those were a proven, and powerful tool in war, if with many downsides if not handled properly. But there was nothing better for crashing through a line. The big problem was that the Carthaginian forces couldn’t get them through the Alps - not alive, anyway. Assuming they were worthless only because they weren’t invincible… well, it doesn’t make sense. Of course, it turned out Hannibal didn’t need them that badly, and by Zama it didn’t matter what the Carthaginians fielded. But that’s only with the knowledge of hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/11 "2017-07-08T22:42:39Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I don’t agree concerning the elephants. Those were a proven, and powerful tool in war, if with many downsides if not handled properly. What elephants are good for: 1. Freaking out if you look at them funny. 2. Running amok and stomping your own guys. 3. Being useless. Screw elephants. And I don’t agree that it didn’t matter what Hannibal fielded at Zama. I don’t think that battle was a foregone conclusion. Here’s a tip, though: Don’t field elephants. I don’t care if you’re in Africa, and have elephants coming out the wazoo. Here’s what you should do: Hand the elephants over to the other side before the battle. Hopefully, they’ll take them. It’ll probably work out better for you. Also, what is Hannibal’s MO? Ambushes. Trickery. Who brings an elephant to an ambush? That’s like… well, like bringing an elephant to an ambush. I think that is actually idiomatic. _Maybe_, though, when I think about it, they’re good for something else. Maybe they’re for scaring the piss out of any Gauls you run into on the way from Spain to Italy. If you’re a Gaul, and you see an army marching along, you’ll think, “well, there’s an army in my airspace”, and block the pass. But if they have a bunch of elephants with them, and you’ve never been to the circus, because you’re a Gaul, maybe you’ll think “WTF is _that_?!”, and run the other way. So there is, potentially, that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/12 "2017-07-09T05:58:35Z")
The big problem Hannibal faced while crossing the Alps was an avalanche destroyed all his siege equipment. That meant the Romans were always able to avoid battles by retreating into forts and walled cities and all Hannibal could do is glare at them (and pillage the country side). That said, he was in Italy for fifteen years. You’d think at some point he might have asked Carthage to send him replacements. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/13 "2017-07-09T07:35:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The big problem Hannibal faced while crossing the Alps was an avalanche destroyed all his siege equipment. That meant the Romans were always able to avoid battles by retreating into forts and walled cities and all Hannibal could do is glare at them (and pillage the country side). > > That said, he was in Italy for fifteen years. You’d think at some point he might have asked Carthage to send him replacements. Or, you know, build some more siege equipment. No shortage of trees in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/14 "2017-07-09T08:00:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That said, he was in Italy for fifteen years. You’d think at some point he might have asked Carthage to send him replacements. They did send him replacements and the occasional reinforcement. Like the aforementioned Hasdrubal, and also sometimes across the sea from Spain or Africa. The Roman Navy was not always able to stop them like they were unable to stop him returning to Africa before Zama. The problem was that the Barcid’s were about as politically popular in Carthage as George W Bush at the end of his term. The Carthaginian Senate routinely turned down requests for help by Hannibal on one pretext or the other (Roman writers mention this in passing) almost as much as they would if they were actual paid Roman agents (my conspiracy theory self-says at least some were).\ > [@Alessan](#): > > Or, you know, build some more siege equipment. No shortage of trees in Italy. Well, he needed engineers for that, and for some reason, he was not allowed to take any. They said they were needed in Spain, but surely some could have been sent when he won his victories, to reinforce success; you know, scratch what I said above, the Carthaginians Senators all absolutely were getting Roman gold and probably a few Vestel Virgins thrown in. What other reason could they have had for always cutting Hannibal at the knees? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/15 "2017-07-09T09:23:20Z")
I will up and confess, no matter how shameful, if an elephant charged at me I would run like fuck. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/16 "2017-07-09T09:33:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The big problem Hannibal faced while crossing the Alps was an avalanche destroyed all his siege equipment. That meant the Romans were always able to avoid battles by retreating into forts and walled cities and all Hannibal could do is glare at them (and pillage the country side). > > That said, he was in Italy for fifteen years. You’d think at some point he might have asked Carthage to send him replacements. What siege equipment is so complex that it can’t be made locally over those 15 years? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/17 "2017-07-09T11:08:01Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > I will up and confess, no matter how shameful, if an elephant charged at me I would run like fuck. They certainly had that effect. Speaking of which (not relevant, but I always liked it) [Municipal (Rudyard Kipling)](http://www.bartleby.com/364/14.html) (A Waler is a gelding supplied from NSW.aus) But after a while, people weren’t afraid of elephants, and apparently elephants are like tanks: they need to be supported by infantry or they’re vulnerable. I think that when people worked out effective defensive tactics, the level of organisation required to provide effective screening for tactical deployment of elephants was prohibitive. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/18 "2017-07-09T14:07:40Z")
Hannibal did actually build and employ siege equipment while in Italy, so any discussion about why he didn’t is rather moot. If and when he wanted to, he could besiege stuff. It never really seemed to work out for him, though. Here he is with a tower at Cumae (quoting Livy): > [@](#): > > While these reasons detained Fabius, Sempronius was blockaded and already beset by siege-works. As a defence against a great wooden tower which was moved up to the city, the Roman consul reared from the wall itself another tower considerably higher. For he had used the wall, which in itself was quite high, as a base, shoring it up with stout timbers. From that tower the defenders first held the wall and the city by hurling stones and stakes and every other missile. Finally, seeing that the enemy’s tower had been pushed close against the wall, they hurled a vast amount of fire all at once from their blazing torches. While great numbers of armed men, alarmed by the fire, were leaping down from the tower, a sally out of two gates of the town at the same time routed the enemy’s guards and sent them in flight to the camp, so that on that day the Carthaginian resembled a besieged army more than a besieger. As the cool kids say, tower fail. And here’s other stuff at Casilinum: > [@](#): > > While the attack was now in progress with engines of every kind and with siege-works, a garrison sent from Metapontum encouraged the Romans to make a surprise attack by night upon the works of the enemy. Some of these they pulled apart, others they ruined by fire; and this was the end of Hannibal’s attack upon the citadel from that side. Siege equipment fail. Anyway, there are lots of problems with sieges, certainly in this era. The two main issues being that they are super difficult, and they take bloody ages. Hannibal spent months parked outside Saguntum before that city fell in 218 BC. The Romans themselves, in this same war, spend forever besieging Capua and Syracuse. Hannibal never had a very large army, and he needed to stay mobile. Parking outside cities for yonks, only to have Roman relief armies show up, was probably never really going to work very well. And that wasn’t ever plan A. Plan A was simple: 1: Beat the living bejeezus out of the Roman armies. 2: Have the Roman allies switch sides to Carthage. 3: Laugh as the Romans surrender. Also, profit. Part 1 worked out great. Part 2 kinda-sorta worked. The problem was that the Romans absolutely would not play ball on part 3. Instead, they gave Hannibal the finger, and raised new armies, from a seemingly bottomless pool of manpower. Which is not supposed to happen. The plan should have worked, dammit. It would have worked fine against anyone who wasn’t the Romans. and it’s pretty much exactly what works for Scipio by the time we get to Zama. The idea that Hannibal should have besieged Rome seems, in my admittedly non-expert opinion, pretty ridiculous. The Romans didn’t win PWII by besieging Carthage. They won by beating the Carthaginian armies (in Spain and at Zama), having the Carthaginian allies switch sides, and then watch as Carthage surrendered. They didn’t besiege and take Carthage until PWIII, and that was an absolutely huge logistical operation. Hannibal was supposed to do that in Italy? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/19 "2017-07-09T16:11:49Z")
Actually, a word on part 2 of that. It kinda-sorta worked, but it also kinds-sorta totally didn’t. For one thing, when Roman allies flip, it doesn’t really help Hannibal militarily. Sure, it deprives Rome of resources, but it almost doesn’t matter, because they always find more men and money behind the couch cushions, or behind the portal closet door, or something. And Hannibal isn’t refilling his army with Italians, is he? It’s not like he suddenly gets legionaries now. The Italian allies either get super good deals, like, “we won’t fight for the Romans, but we also won’t fight for you, we’ll just sit over here”. Or Rome just instantly slaps down a siege on whatever town or city Hannibal flips. Capua and Syracuse flip, and boom, Rome just hits them. So, fat load of good that did. If anything, Hannibal buys himself problems. He flips an ally, Rome hits them, they cry foul. And now Hannibal has to stop whatever he’s doing to go bail them out. He must have been tearing his hair out. On the other side of the fence, meanwhile, it’s a bit different. When Rome flips a Numidian ally of Carthage to their side, suddenly it’s Rome who are fielding the Numidian cavalry. Whoops. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617/20 "2017-07-09T16:43:51Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > The idea that Hannibal should have besieged Rome seems, in my admittedly non-expert opinion, pretty ridiculous. The Romans didn’t win PWII by besieging Carthage. They won by beating the Carthaginian armies (in Spain and at Zama), having the Carthaginian allies switch sides, and then watch as Carthage surrendered. They didn’t besiege and take Carthage until PWIII, and that was an absolutely huge logistical operation. Hannibal was supposed to do that in Italy? Really? While they did have some pretty good siege weapons in that era, including the first Lithobolos and Ballista, these were nothing like the one seen a couple of centuries later, the Lithobolos which could throw a one-ton rock a half a mile and which went through walls as is they were tissue paper. Most sieges in those days depended on towers and ramps, as well as digging counter fortifications around the town you were besieging. You needed good engineers to win quickly, otherwise, you could be there a while. Right after Cannae, the Romans had (IIRC) three legions in Rome itself. If Hannibal went to try and take the city quickly, he needed way more siege expertise then he had with him, otherwise, prepare for a long seige. And while he was sitting outside Rome, he had the risk of another Roman Army coming and pinning him between the walls and itself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hannibal-crossing-the-alps/790617.md?page=2)