# Happy Birthday Dear Yehoshua... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 3, 2002, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971 "2002-05-03T00:32:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/1 "2002-05-03T00:32:34Z")
In reading [this](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_034b.html), I wondered if the ‘sheep and taxes’ issues were bunk too. As I recall many folks placed his birth in March as the census was being taken, and the sheep were in the fields (Likely around March). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/2 "2002-05-03T00:56:19Z")
Well, we don’t have any clear records of the census at the time of Jesus’ birth (I think that Dex has a Staff Report coming up on this), but I’ve heard the thing about the sheep as well. The relevant point is not that the sheep were in the field (where else would they be?), but that the shepherds were, as well, which would supposedly only occur at lambing time. ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/3 "2002-05-03T01:02:47Z")
Gotcha on the shepherds one, but wouldn’t it make sense to have the census take place when the weather would likely permit more folks to make it? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/4 "2002-05-03T04:19:51Z")
The shepherds were _always_ in the fields. My understanding of Roman-era Mideastern shepherding is that the shepherds stayed out there in the fields 24/7/365 to keep the sheep from being stolen. The “sheepfolds” they had were simply stone enclosures with gates out in the fields that served to keep the sheep all in one place for the night, but that still required human vigilance against thieves (and the occasional four-legged predators). They didn’t have anywhere to put the sheep for the night with a door that locked, so if they wanted to keep their woolly assets from being run off by rustlers, they had to stay out there with them. And so the shepherds wouldn’t have been out there in the fields with them merely because it was lambing time–they were out there anyway. They lived there. That was what they “did”, was “do sheep”. They didn’t “put the sheep to bed” at non-lambing times of the year and then go home themselves, leaving the sheep all by their lonesomes out in the fields. However, that IS the way modern Western “hobby farmers” manage their sheep. The pastures in Vermont and Minnesota are pretty much predator-free and thief-free, so at night the shepherd goes home to bed, leaving the sheep to their own devices, except at lambing time, when he basically camps out with them, or else brings them into a shed. So, the folks who say “the shepherds were out there because it was lambing time” are assuming that the rest of the year the Mideast sheep were pretty much left to their own devices. They’re making the mistake of applying modern Western “hobby farmer” shepherding techniques to Roman-era Palestine. The census would indeed have been scheduled for when traveling was easy, and in Palestine, where winter generally brings cold, rainy weather, traveling on Judea’s dirt roads would have been best from about April to November. (Roman roads didn’t go everywhere.) [http://www.palguide.com/information.htm](http://www.palguide.com/information.htm) > [@](#): > > There are four seasons in Palestine. Winter is mildly cold and rainy while summer is usually hot and dry. Autumn is pleasant and spring is beautiful with the wide array of wild flowers and blooming tress. Average temperatures in Palestine range from 9-18 C in winter and 26-30 C in summer. [http://www.travelmania.com/temperatures.asp](http://www.travelmania.com/temperatures.asp) > [@](#): > > Israel enjoys temperate weather throughout the year. The country is virtually rainless from early spring through late autumn. In winter, rainy spells alternate with many fine, sunny days, and little rain falls in Eilat or Dead Sea regions. > > Summers are sunny and hot, with higher levels of humidity along the Mediterranean, in the valleys and around the Sea of Galilee. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/5 "2002-05-03T04:30:28Z")
I had also thought the answer was in the sheep as well … but now I think of it, that was in a kid’s magazine many, many years ago. There’s a good scholarly article from **The Catholic Encyclopedia** at [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm) which includes the encouraging statement (in the disquition of the Alexandrine tradition: > [@](#): > > But Lupi has shown (Zaccaria, Dissertazioni ecc. del p. A.M. Lupi, Faenza, 1785, p. 219) that there is no month in the year to which respectable authorities have not assigned Christ’s birth. ---
**Author:** ![tanookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/48db29/32.png) [@tanookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanookie)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/6 "2002-05-03T12:58:54Z")
Hi I’d refer to my notes but they are all packed in boxes since the move so I am going to make a moron of myself and try this by memory 🙂 When I took an ancient civilizations class a couple years ago the professor discussed Zoroastrism. Zoroaster had a favorite angel named Mithra. (this was around 1300 BC) Many people decided they just liked Mithra and so he got his own religion, Mithraism. Now the people celebrated Mithra’s birthday on Dec 25 and when the Catholic church came in they didn’t like all the pagan celebrating. (I guess even when they embraced Catholocism they were loath to give up their favorite holiday tradition or the Catholics were not happy sitting at home in the bleak winter watching the pagans party) So to make everyone happy Jesus’ birthday was celebrated on Dec 25. [http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0833460.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0833460.html) [http://www.iranian.com/History/Sept97/Mitra/index.html](http://www.iranian.com/History/Sept97/Mitra/index.html) I don’t know how accurate their information is but it more or less agrees with what I remember. (Gotta love the internet) Anyway that’s my “Why is Christmas on Christmas” 2 cents 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![s\_herald](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@s\_herald](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/s_herald)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/7 "2002-05-03T20:26:47Z")
Perhaps another factor in the belief that Jesus was a Pisces is the widespread use of the fish symbol by 1st and 2nd century Christians. Of course, this symbol derived from the phrase “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior,” which was a kind of identifying password among early Christians. In Greek, the initial letters of the phrase (Iesous CHristos, THeou Uios, Soter) spelled out the word for “fish” (ichthus). ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/8 "2002-05-03T22:01:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tanookie \* > Now the people celebrated Mithra’s birthday on Dec 25 This birthday celebration was the “Birthday of the Invincible Sun” that is refered to in Cecil’s column. Its Latin name was Sol Invictus. BTW, Saturnalia was a festival that happened earlier in December (7th through 14th, I think) and was probably not the reason Christmas was put in December. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/9 "2002-05-03T23:03:07Z")
Staff Report next week (May 7) will cover the famous census. I wouldn’t use it too heavily for dating stuff, if I were you. The author of the report firmly resisted any temptation to suggest that, if you believe in this strange event, you must have taken leave of your, ah, census. ---
**Author:** ![BobKarlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@BobKarlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobKarlin)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/10 "2002-05-04T05:17:23Z")
Actually, to predate the Staff Report, the census was taken in conjunction with the Jewish pilgrim festivals, since all Jews at the time were required to “appear before the L_rd your G_d in the place that He so chooses…” which was the temple at Jerusalem. The Romans just counted the heads as they went to present thier offerings. ---
**Author:** ![luxdesigns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/34f0e0/32.png) [@luxdesigns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luxdesigns)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/11 "2002-05-04T14:33:45Z")
You all are making a big assumption that the man was even born or even existed at all… Funny, I could have sworn he was a figment of the early Greek church’s imagination… How odd that someone who was oh-so-great would be forgotten until the 4th century AD, until it was convenient to make him popular. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/12 "2002-05-04T20:51:13Z")
I mentioned, about a year and a half ago, I think, in a thread called “The Star of Bethlehem, Redux,” about two parts of the topic of Jesus’ birth: _He was born in the year 4 B.C. or earlier (year 749 of Rome or earlier; 749 Ab Urbe Condita)._ In his translation of the works of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who apparently lived in the late 1st Century/early 2nd Century A.D., English writer-historian William Whiston, extrapolating from Josephus’ writings, appended a footnote concluding that Jesus would have to have been born in 4 B.C.; later historians suggest an even earlier date. (Incidentally, Quirinius was governor of Syria _twice,_ and there were in fact _two_ “registrations” involved, both during the reign of Caesar Augustus.) An eclipse of the moon figured in Josephus’ accounts; however, the one in 4 B.C. was “four digits” while one in 2/1 B.C. was total. _His birthday was on December 25._ This date, not supported in Scripture, derives from a Roman holiday _Dies Solis Invicti,_ “Birth of the Unconquered Sun,” i.e. the first day when the sun’s course across the sky starts stepping toward the south; the day following the Winter Solstice. Jesus gave only one command to his disciples concerning a day to observe regularly: that of his death and sacrifice, conciding with the Jewish Passover; he was the “Passover Lamb” himself. The Church did not adopt pagan trappings until the 4th Century, ostensibly to gain converts–although from what Jesus taught, and later statements in the Gospels and the Acts, “quantity” was not a requirement. (“There are many called but few chosen”; ‘if this movement is from God you will never be able to overthrow it’–from Acts 5:39.) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/13 "2002-05-04T21:57:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dougie\_monty \* > \*\*… a Roman holiday _Dies Solis Invicti,_ “Birth of the Unconquered Sun,” i.e. the first day when the sun’s course across the sky starts stepping toward the south; the day following the Winter Solstice. \*\* The sun starts moving _north_ following the Winter Solstice. Not only the entire Roman Empire, but also the cultures that influenced its reigion & astrology, were in the _Northern_ Hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/14 "2002-05-04T22:01:34Z")
[sub]and of course “reigion” was suppos’d to be “religion” in that sentence[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/15 "2002-05-05T12:11:54Z")
\<\< How odd that someone who was oh-so-great would be forgotten until the 4th century AD, until it was convenient to make him popular. \>\> Well, no. The works of Tacitus and others (Josphus, Suetonius, etc) confirm that there were “followers of Chreestus” in Rome by around 70 - 100 AD. Presumably, to have “followers,” he wouldn’t have been “forgotten.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/16 "2002-05-05T13:00:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by luxdesigns \* > \*\*You all are making a big assumption that the man was even born or even existed at all… > > Funny, I could have sworn he was a figment of the early Greek church’s imagination… > > How odd that someone who was oh-so-great would be forgotten until the 4th century AD, until it was convenient to make him popular. \*\* 4th Century? To quote [the Master himself](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_275.html): > [@](#): > > If what you’re looking for is proof positive that Jesus Christ lived and breathed–e.g., library card, baby pictures, etc.–you’re out of luck. The big guy left no written records, and no accounts of his life were written while he was still alive. **The earliest Gospels date from maybe 70 AD, 40 years after his demise.** > > Still, barring an actual conspiracy, 40 years is too short a time for an entirely mythical Christ to have been fabricated out of (heh-heh) whole cloth. (See below.) Certainly the non-Christians who wrote about him in the years following his putative death did not doubt he had once lived. The Roman historian Tacitus, writing in his Annals around 110 AD, mentions one “Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius.” The Jewish historian Josephus remarks on the stoning of “James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” The Talmud, a collection of Jewish writings, also refers to Christ, although it says he was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panther. Doubts about the historicity of Christ did not surface until the 18th century. **In short, whether or not JC was truly the Son of God, he was probably the son of somebody.** (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/17 "2002-05-05T19:25:06Z")
Your bolding is nice, but there’s still a very prominent \probably\ in there. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/18 "2002-05-06T01:48:48Z")
And your point would be…? [look of polite inquiry] ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/19 "2002-05-07T06:36:59Z")
> [@](#): > > The sun starts moving north following the Winter Solstice. Not only the entire Roman Empire, but also the cultures that influenced its reigion & astrology, were in the Northern Hemisphere. You are correct, Foolsguinea. I should have said "stepping toward the _north."_ Mea culpa. :o ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-dear-yehoshua/106971/20 "2002-12-27T19:11:42Z")
There is more discussion in the thread [Was Jesus born in September or October?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=152692)