# "Happy Birthday" - is it really profitable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 20, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782 "2010-02-20T18:09:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/1 "2010-02-20T18:09:10Z")
Supposedly, Warner/Chappell owns the rights to this song, and will until 2030. They somehow make millions off of it every year, from any public performances, TV shows, and movies. Yet for at least the last 20 years, all I’ve every heard in TV shows or movies is “For He’s (She’s) a Golly Good Fellow”, which is 300 years old and very much public domain. At the very most, some character starts singing, “Happy B…”, but then are cut off by another singing FHAGGF. So where is W/C getting the money from this song. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/2 "2010-02-20T18:45:53Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > Supposedly, Warner/Chappell owns the rights to this song, and will until 2030. They somehow make millions off of it every year, from any public performances, TV shows, and movies. They’re recognized as owning the rights, and they get [$2 million a year in royalties, according to this law professor.](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1111624) (He thinks the song should be in the public domain by now.) If you use music in a movie or TV show and it gets any kind of distribution, you have to clear the rights. So a lot of people use other songs, but evidently some people pay up. Although it sounds like Warner Chappell claims they are legally entitled to much, much more money than they get. [Wikipedia mentions a couple of instances where the song has been performed in full.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You#Royalty_amounts_sought) They also specify that Warner Chappell isn’t making money from private performances, but gets money from entertainment and public use by non-family members. So if you’re putting the song in a movie, you have to pay up. And if you are, say, an executive for US Widget and you want to have all the employees sing “Happy Birthday” to the chairman at a corporate retreat, I’m thinking you have to pay for that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/3 "2010-02-20T18:46:49Z")
[Snopes sez:](http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp) > [@](#): > > Who does own the publishing rights to “Happy Birthday to You”? They were acquired by a New York accountant named John F. Sengstack when he bought the Clayton F. Summy Company in the 1930s; Sengstack eventually relocated the company to New Jersey and renamed it Birch Tree Ltd. in the 1970s. Warner Chappell (a Warner Communications division), the largest music publisher in the world, purchased Birch Tree Ltd. in late 1998 for a reported sale price of $25 million; the company then became Summy-Birchard Music, now a part of the giant AOL Time Warner media conglomerate. According to David Sengstack, president of Summy-Birchard, “Happy Birthday to You” brings in about $2 million in royalties annually, with the proceeds split between Summy-Birchard and the Hill Foundation. Where’s the money come from? > [@](#): > > Royalties are due, of course, for commercial uses of the song, such as playing or singing it for profit, using it in movies, television programs, and stage shows, or incorporating it into musical products such as watches and greeting cards; as well, royalties are due for public performance, defined by copyright law as performances which occur “at a place open to the public, or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered.” So, crooning “Happy Birthday to You” to family members and friends at home is fine, but performing a copyrighted work in a public setting such as a restaurant or a sports arena technically requires a license from ASCAP or the Harry Fox Agency (although such infringements are rarely prosecuted). How do they get the money? In addition to things like recordings in musical greeting cards, general licensing fees as well as specific individual performances bring in royalties. [A perhaps not unbiased but apparently fairly knowledgeable source says:](http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/1/1389.html?1149058859) > [@](#): > > Moreover, ASCAP has horror stories of its own. In 1995 ASCAP sent letters to 6,000 summer camps, including the Girl Scouts, informing them that they had to pay royalties for “public performances.” Copyright law defines a “public performance” as a place “where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered.” ASCAP did not specifically say that it wanted to charge for singing around the campfire, but the damage was done. For ASCAP it was a public relations disaster. And some Girl Scout leaders are still afraid to sing “Puff the Magic Dragon.” In 1992 an ASCAP undercover agent caught a piano player at a New Jersey restaurant playing George Gershwin’s “Rhapsody in Blue” without a license. ASCAP sued the restaurant and settled out of court for $5,500. ASCAP has been known to threaten legal action for the singing of “Happy Birthday.” How do they know? Harvey Reid, a musician based in Maine, explains it well. ASCAP and BMI have field agents on payroll who listen to the radio and watch the newspaper listings. When a new venue starts offering live music, an agent will either show up in person or write a letter demanding money for the license. “If a nightclub or even a store refuses to buy the license, then ASCAP or BMI will hire spies, often local music teachers or semi-professional musicians who will make notes and testify in court as expert witnesses that on a certain date at a certain time a certain song was indeed played. … Note that even though the musicians or the employees decide what is played it is the owner of the establishment where the music is played who gets sued.” To see the full text of Harvey Reid’s article, “ASCAP and BMI: Protectors of Artists or Shadowy Thieves?” go to [http://www.woodpecker.com](http://www.woodpecker.com). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/4 "2010-02-20T19:26:26Z")
It’s funny this should come up: I was just watching the movie _Office Space_, and noticed that they did actually sing “Happy Birthday” in one scene, and listed it in the credits. So clearly there is at least one movie that did decide to pay up instead of using something different. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/5 "2010-02-20T21:06:49Z")
This is why restaurants have their employees sing stupid made-up birthday songs to birthday guests. They would have to pay royalties if they sang “Happy Birthday”. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/6 "2010-02-20T22:34:45Z")
The ASCAPholes also threaten to sue places like dentists’ offices and car repair joints if someone has teh radio turned up too loud. Music provided by the establishment in a public place is deemed public performance. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/7 "2010-02-20T22:50:01Z")
If I were going to pay for a birthday song, I’d pay for [this one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztoSUhbNntQ) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/8 "2010-02-21T03:13:31Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If I were going to pay for a birthday song, I’d pay for [this one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztoSUhbNntQ) I clicked expecting to hear [this one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVLzZLn817Y). ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/9 "2010-02-21T19:57:52Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The ASCAPholes also threaten to sue places like dentists’ offices and car repair joints if someone has teh radio turned up too loud. Music provided by the establishment in a public place is deemed public performance. [“The courts have exempted small establishments that just use a portable radio or boom box”](http://www.r-vcr.com/music/copyright/stores.htm) in the U.S. I know of two places where they seem to take advantage of this: a small food court, and a barber shop. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/10 "2010-02-21T20:38:51Z")
ASCAP tried to get The Gap to pay for having music played in its stores, but lost the case when a court ruled that unlike a bar or restaurant, a reasonable person wouldn’t expect music as part of the experience of buying clothing (from memory - I’m a musician, and a bar I played was having to deal with ASCAP at the time). ASCAP does indeed send undercover agents to venues, who listen for any music they hold copyrights to. These agents are ruthlessly thorough; they do things like surrepticiously sign up on performers’ email distros and check in search of ‘untapped’ venues. There are exhorbitant fines in place (on the order of $10,000 _per song played_) that they can threaten the venue with, after which their license sounds cheap. The bar I mentioned above ultimately decided to have only performers who played their own compositions, or public domain songs. I play old-public domain blues, and I had a few ‘duels’ with the ASCAP rep: I would start a song that I knew contained, say, a lyric from a Led Zeppelin song. The rep would start scribbling in his notebook, only to stop when he realized I was playing a public domain song that Led Zeppelin had stolen and put into their now copyrighted work. IMO, if ASCAP could get a ruling and figure out an enforcement mechanism to charge people for humming their songs in private, they would. I know this is GQ, but IME many people (witness the OP) are shocked to learn the extent of ASCAP’s authority, and the duration that such authority is in place (copyright lengths have been steadily increasing, in large part due to the relationship between Disney Corp. and the late Rep. Sonny Bono). ---
**Author:** ![Simmerdown](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simmerdown/32/14859_2.png) [@Simmerdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simmerdown)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/11 "2010-02-21T21:03:24Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If I were going to pay for a birthday song, I’d pay for [this one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztoSUhbNntQ) > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I clicked expecting to hear [this one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVLzZLn817Y). I clicked expecting to hear [this one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40K2S0-5Xo0). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/12 "2010-02-21T22:05:16Z")
> [@Simmerdown](#): > > I clicked expecting to hear [this one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40K2S0-5Xo0). Ooh, that’s good. Also[this one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47UplyBQK4Y&NR=1) ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/13 "2010-02-21T23:52:03Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > This is why restaurants have their employees sing stupid made-up birthday songs to birthday guests. They would have to pay royalties if they sang “Happy Birthday”. I had dinner at Cheesecake Factory last night. One group in the restaurant was there to celebrate a birthday. A group of 4 waiters brought ou a piece of cheesecake with a candle in it, one announced it was the woman’s 90th birthday. The waiters starting singing Happy Birthday and many in the restaurant joined in. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/14 "2010-02-22T00:46:20Z")
IMDb [lists 11 2008 movies](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0384558/) with “Happy Birthday” in the soundtrack credits. Assuming all of them paid something in clearances that seems a relatively steady stream: Marley & Me Bedtime Stories Revolutionary Road W. Camino Wanted Baby Mama Taken The Eye Cortex First Sunday ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/15 "2010-02-22T06:19:27Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > Supposedly, Warner/Chappell owns the rights to this song, and will until 2030. “It took TWO PEOPLE to write that song?!?!?” [INDENT]- Isaac Jaffe on **Sports Night** [/INDENT] ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/16 "2010-02-22T06:35:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Ooh, that’s good. Also[this one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47UplyBQK4Y&NR=1) Here’s another [good alternative](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F21ULk-fAp4). ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/17 "2010-02-22T07:10:39Z")
Note that only the lyrics to “Happy Birthday to You” are under copyright. The much older music, written in 1893 and published in 1912 as “Good Morning to All”, is in the public domain. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/18 "2010-02-22T08:18:08Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > I had dinner at Cheesecake Factory last night. One group in the restaurant was there to celebrate a birthday. A group of 4 waiters brought ou a piece of cheesecake with a candle in it, one announced it was the woman’s 90th birthday. The waiters starting singing Happy Birthday and many in the restaurant joined in. ASCAP is going to be all over their ass now that you’ve outed them. Seeing as you’re from my neck of the woods, have you ever heard the birthday song sung by the Red Robin folks? Truly awful. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/19 "2010-02-22T08:54:56Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Note that only the lyrics to “Happy Birthday to You” are under copyright. The much older music, written in 1893 and published in 1912 as “Good Morning to All”, is in the public domain. So, the right way to sing it in public is [like this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLY2VCkmws). And, of course, always end the song like this: You look like a monkey And you smell like one too. Otherwise, it’s not authentic. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782/20 "2010-02-22T16:55:34Z")
I recall an interview with the principal composer/singer behind the group Edward Bear about 10 years ago. They did the songs “Last Song” and “You Me and Mexico”. (You’d probably recognize them if you heard them) Considering they were written 20 years before, and likely played only on Solid Gold and 60’s-70’s rock stations (and maybe a few elevators) he claimed to be making a moderate living off the proceeds. You have to figure that anyone who has the rights to something fairly common has a steady stream of money coming in. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-birthday-is-it-really-profitable/529782.md?page=2)