# Happy now Clothahump?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 4, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312 "2006-01-04T00:50:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/21 "2006-01-04T05:24:21Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Yeah tell me the reaction of the posters supporting the shooting aren’t racial.
You’ll have to do better than just assuming that.
> [@](#):
>
> If a cop in the States gunned down a white teenager that had chucked a rock at him and run, it would be a major scandal.
It would be likely to be an act of stupidity (on the teenager’s part), regardless of race. You are the one being racist. We don’t even know the race of the BP officer, yet you whip out the race card quicker than Johnnie Cochrane.
> [@](#):
>
> But because it was a Mexican trying to sneak across the border it is justified. Fucking gringo hypocrisy.
> [@Your cite](#):
>
> Officials of Mexico’s federal Human Rights Commission have acknowledged that Mexico already employs some of the same methods in its own territory. But Aguilar again attacked the U.S. measure Monday, saying “walls and police crackdowns never will resolve migration problems.”
Your own country’s border policy with El Salvador and Guatamala IS a hypocrisy. Relish in that.
---
### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/22 "2006-01-04T05:30:37Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Easy for me to say? What a fucking moron. It’s not even a criminal offense to illegally enter the USA let alone a capital crime. Fuck off.
Assaulting a federal officer is a criminal offense, not necessarily a capital one though. Illegal immigration is about to become one.
We don’t throw rocks at our law enforcement servants here. They have guns. They are not taught to throw rocks back at someone who assaults them. If they feel threatened they can, and probably will, shoot. What **clothahump** said hasn’t effected that one way or the other.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/23 "2006-01-04T05:30:52Z")
Mexico’s border with El Salvador? :wally
---
### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/24 "2006-01-04T05:33:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Officials of Mexico’s federal Human Rights Commission have acknowledged that Mexico already employs some of the same methods in its own territory. But Aguilar again attacked the U.S. measure Monday, saying “walls and police crackdowns never will resolve migration problems.”
>
> In 2004, Mexican migrants in the United States sent home more than $16 billion in remittances, according to Mexico’s central bank, giving the nation its second biggest source of foreign currency after oil exports.
:eek:
Maybe we _should_ annex them, and keep that $16 billion American. We wouldn’t have to shoot 'em anymore, either.
---
### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/25 "2006-01-04T05:34:18Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#):
>
> Your own country’s border policy with El Salvador and Guatamala IS a hypocrisy. Relish in that.
Maybe he will understand “fucking wetback hypocrisy” better.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/26 "2006-01-04T05:34:38Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#):
>
> Assaulting a federal officer is a criminal offense, not necessarily a capital one though. Illegal immigration is about to become one.
>
> We don’t throw rocks at our law enforcement servants here. They have guns. They are not taught to throw rocks back at someone who assaults them. If they feel threatened they can, and probably will, shoot. What **clothahump** said hasn’t effected that one way or the other.
Give me a break.
" **4. 1 NYPD Guidelines on Deadly Force**
The NYC Police Departments patrol guide states that The primary duty of all members of the service is to preserve human life. The departments guidelines for the use of firearms provides that deadly force may be used as a last resort when an officer or another person is in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death and **all other reasonable alternative measures have been exhausted. NYPD guidelines on fleeing suspects state that deadly force shall not be used to subdue a fleeing felon who presents no threat of imminent death or serious physical injury to themselves or another person. Under this standard a NYC police officer may not fire at a suspect fleeing from the scene of even a violent crime simply in order to stop the suspect, or make an arrest, unless someones life is in direct and immediate danger.** This is a stricter standard than provided under both New York state law and nationally. (The US Supreme Court established a national minimum standard governing police use of deadly force in Tennessee v Garner in 1985, ruling that deadly force may not be used against a nonviolent fleeing suspect; however the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of someone suspected of a serious felony involving violence, or the threat of violence, has not been ruled unconstitutional. NY state law allows the use of deadly force against fleeing felons suspected of certain categories of dangerous crime.)
The guidelines also prohibit the firing of warning shots; discharging firearms in defence of property; firing at a moving vehicle unless the occupants are using deadly force other than the vehicle itself; and discharging firearms when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons. They provide that, wherever feasible, a verbal warning should be given before firearms are discharged. They also state that police officers shall never cock a firearm (hold the gun with the trigger lever raised in readiness for firing) under any circumstances."
---
### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/27 "2006-01-04T05:35:04Z")
The biggest elephant in the room here is the fact that the borders will _never_ be closed, because the U.S. benefits greatly from having access to low-cost labor. If every illegal alien is rounded up and shipped home, people will lose their nannies, gardeners, produce farmers, and general laborers.
The fact is, the current situation with illegal immigration is the result of a nod-and-a-wink between the U.S. and Mexico that yes, it’s illegal to sneak into the country, but we might not go looking too hard for such people, because they’re damned useful to us.
Now the political winds are changing, mostly for the wrong reasons, and there will be some kind of ‘crackdown’, to the detriment of both countries.
The illegals are not generally taking jobs away from Americans. They are doing jobs that Americans won’t do. Jobs that simply aren’t valuable enough to entire a typical American job seeker when they can be paid no less than minimum wage.
Basically, just like other government interventions in the marketplace, the minimum wage and/or the general wealth of America has created a black market in labor.
---
### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/28 "2006-01-04T05:36:55Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Give me a break.
>
> " **4. 1 NYPD Guidelines on Deadly Force**
>
> The NYC Police Departments patrol guide states that The primary duty of all members of the service is to preserve human life. The departments guidelines for the use of firearms provides that deadly force may be used as a last resort when an officer or another person is in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death and **all other reasonable alternative measures have been exhausted. NYPD guidelines on fleeing suspects state that deadly force shall not be used to subdue a fleeing felon who presents no threat of imminent death or serious physical injury to themselves or another person. Under this standard a NYC police officer may not fire at a suspect fleeing from the scene of even a violent crime simply in order to stop the suspect, or make an arrest, unless someones life is in direct and immediate danger.** This is a stricter standard than provided under both New York state law and nationally. (The US Supreme Court established a national minimum standard governing police use of deadly force in Tennessee v Garner in 1985, ruling that deadly force may not be used against a nonviolent fleeing suspect; however the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of someone suspected of a serious felony involving violence, or the threat of violence, has not been ruled unconstitutional. NY state law allows the use of deadly force against fleeing felons suspected of certain categories of dangerous crime.)
>
> The guidelines also prohibit the firing of warning shots; discharging firearms in defence of property; firing at a moving vehicle unless the occupants are using deadly force other than the vehicle itself; and discharging firearms when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons. They provide that, wherever feasible, a verbal warning should be given before firearms are discharged. They also state that police officers shall never cock a firearm (hold the gun with the trigger lever raised in readiness for firing) under any circumstances."
NYPD now provides border guards with Mexico? Read the sentence right before your bolding dumbass.
---
### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/29 "2006-01-04T05:39:06Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> It’s not clear from the article, but it sounds like he threw the stone, then got shot. While I’m aware that a stone can be a deadly weapon, it’s the not exactly easily reusable. If the guy had been threatening to throw it when he got shot, I guess I could see reason in that. If he had a bunch of stones, and had already thrown one, sure, the marshall should defend himself. But if he had one stone, thrown it, missed, and then got shot… well, the guy’s just disarmed himself. Shooting seems a bit excessive at that point, to say the least.
I don’t have a dog in this hunt. I would just like to point out that the desert is full of rocks, and the nearest “reload” was probably as close as his feet.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/30 "2006-01-04T05:39:14Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#):
>
> NYPD now provides border guards with Mexico? Read the sentence right before your bolding dumbass.
Shit for brains, did you miss the part where it mentioned the US Supreme Court guidelines?
---
### Author:  [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/31 "2006-01-04T05:40:03Z")
Can we seal the border with Mexico?
Even if we assume that this is something that we want to do, is it even possible/feasible?
---
### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/32 "2006-01-04T05:41:20Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> **4. 1 NYPD Guidelines on Deadly Force**
>
> The NYC Police Departments patrol guide states that The primary duty of all members of the service is to preserve human life. **The departments guidelines for the use of firearms provides that deadly force may be used as a last resort when an officer or another person is in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death and all other reasonable alternative measures have been exhausted.** NYPD guidelines on fleeing suspects state that deadly force shall not be used to subdue a fleeing felon who presents no threat of imminent death or serious physical injury to themselves or another person. Under this standard a NYC police officer may not fire at a suspect fleeing from the scene of even a violent crime simply in order to stop the suspect, or make an arrest, unless someones life is in direct and immediate danger. This is a stricter standard than provided under both New York state law and nationally. **(The US Supreme Court established a national minimum standard governing police use of deadly force in Tennessee v Garner in 1985, ruling that deadly force may not be used against a nonviolent fleeing suspect; however the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of someone suspected of a serious felony involving violence, or the threat of violence, has not been ruled unconstitutional.** NY state law allows the use of deadly force against fleeing felons suspected of certain categories of dangerous crime.)
>
> The guidelines also prohibit the firing of warning shots; discharging firearms in defence of property; firing at a moving vehicle unless the occupants are using deadly force other than the vehicle itself; and discharging firearms when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons. They provide that, wherever feasible, a verbal warning should be given before firearms are discharged. They also state that police officers shall never cock a firearm (hold the gun with the trigger lever raised in readiness for firing) under any circumstances."
Fixed that bolding for you. Your mouse must have slipped.
---
### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/33 "2006-01-04T05:47:38Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#):
>
> The illegals are not generally taking jobs away from Americans. They are doing jobs that Americans won’t do. Jobs that simply aren’t valuable enough to entire a typical American job seeker when they can be paid no less than minimum wage.
>
> Basically, just like other government interventions in the marketplace, the minimum wage and/or the general wealth of America has created a black market in labor.
I don’t believe there are any jobs Americans won’t do. There are lots of jobs Americans won’t do for shit pay. Too bad for Business.
I know lots of spoiled, white, spoon-fed Americans who will gladly go to Alaska every summer and work their ass off knee-deep in fish guts because the pay is good.
There ain’t a job shitty enough an American won’t do it. You just gotta pay 'em. What’s wrong with that?
---
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/34 "2006-01-04T05:52:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#):
>
> I don’t believe there are any jobs Americans won’t do. There are lots of jobs Americans won’t do for shit pay. Too bad for Business.
>
> I know lots of spoiled, white, spoon-fed Americans who will gladly go to Alaska every summer and work their ass off knee-deep in fish guts because the pay is good.
>
> There ain’t a job shitty enough an American won’t do it. You just gotta pay 'em. What’s wrong with that?
But the people Sam is talking about wants the cheap labor.
Everything you say is correct but if you are pulling done 200k a year, you want to get away with paying your live in Nanny only $12,000 a year and not $30,000. Your Gardner that you don’t want to know where he lives less than minimum not $10 per hour. Your Factory worker minimum but you cut corners on Safety and they don’t dare complain because the can be deported.
Jim
---
### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/35 "2006-01-04T05:52:35Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> If he felt his life was truly in danger from having a rock (not rocks) thrown at him he has no business to be in that line of work.
So, that justifies the rock throwing? You funny guy you.
> [@CBEscapee's proposed US Border Patrol Job Ad](#):
>
> Wanted:
> Employees who use binoculars, handcuffs and guns. Must be able to handle an occasional rock thrown at you. Cannot use gun to against illegal tresspassers since they possess rights. Must use binoculars to anticipate border crossings and get out of the way. Must use handcuffs to arrest civilians that are protecting themselves from the illegal trespassers. Must let people entering the country illegally without interfering. Must be able to tip hat and say, “Have a nice day.” as they walk by. Benefits: No medical, but you do get a garbage can lid to protect you from rocks.
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Mexico’s border with El Salvador?
No, of course not…what I really meant is the treatment of illegal aliens from Guatalmala AND El Salvador.
> [@AFAIKnow](#):
>
> Maybe he will understand “fucking wetback hypocrisy” better.
I wouldn’t stoop that low. But I’m calling it for what it is…hypocrisy.
Sidenote: And as a business who CAN’T hire illegals (because we are required by CA to do DOJ fingerprinting and background check), I have no problem seeing other businesses doing the same.
---
### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/36 "2006-01-04T05:53:20Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Shit for brains, did you miss the part where it mentioned the US Supreme Court guidelines?
Did you? What part of “nonviolent fleeing suspect” do you not comprende?
> **[The San Diego Union-Tribune - San Diego, California & National News](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/)**
> [@](#):
>
> The agent ran toward the migrant, who retreated to the south and “scooped up what the agent believed to be several rocks,” the release said. “As the agent unholstered his duty weapon, the male cocked his arm and made a throwing motion toward the agent. The agent fired at the male, who grabbed his arm and fled down a grade that leads to the primary border fence.”
A violent fleeing supect can still kill you. Zurramato.
---
### Author:  [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/37 "2006-01-04T05:55:33Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#):
>
> I wouldn’t stoop that low. But I’m calling it for what it is…hypocrisy.
I wouldn’t either. But someone who calls others racist and says stupid shit like “Fucking gringo hypocrisy” had my irony meter grinding.
---
### Author:  [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/38 "2006-01-04T05:57:16Z")
> [@NicePete](#):
>
> Even if we assume that this is something that we want to do, is it even possible/feasible?
Nope. Not completely.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/39 "2006-01-04T06:02:18Z")
Its amazing the lengths some of you are going to to justify some chickenshit border cop using excessive force.
---
### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/40 "2006-01-04T06:04:50Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#):
>
> But the people Sam is talking about wants the cheap labor.
> Everything you say is correct but if you are pulling done 200k a year, you want to get away with paying your live in Nanny only $12,000 a year and not $30,000. Your Gardner that you don’t want to know where he lives less than minimum not $10 per hour. Your Factory worker minimum but you cut corners on Safety and they don’t dare complain because the can be deported.
>
> Jim
i know business wants cheap labor, but that’s very, very different than implying\* America will collapse if it doesn’t get cheap labor. Things adjust. We’ve seen that when gas prices go up. people pay.
But no one needs cheap hotel maids, or vegetable pickers, or leaf-blowing “gardeners.” None of that will result in the downfall of American society if the prices went up.
Business is just greedy, and they like to make it sound like it’s some sort of threat to national security if you can’t get broccoli for $.99/lb. Grow your own damn broccoli! Mow your own damn lawn! Pay $10 more for your hotel room!
\*By “implying” my intent is not to put words in **Sam’s** mouth. I’m just using his post as a launch pad for my little tirade.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312.md?page=1)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312.md?page=3)