# Happy now Clothahump?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 4, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312 "2006-01-04T00:50:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/41 "2006-01-04T06:05:03Z")
Almost as amazing as someone making a definitive declaration of racism with absolutely nothing to back it up.
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/42 "2006-01-04T06:10:18Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#):
>
> Almost as amazing as someone making a definitive declaration of racism with absolutely nothing to back it up.
Maybe some day your little boy will do something stupid like throw a rock at a cop. If he gets killed in retaliation will you still be whistling the same tune?
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### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/43 "2006-01-04T06:12:42Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Its amazing the lengths some of you are going to to justify some chickenshit border cop using excessive force.
I’m amazed at your attitude that we have to be subservient to Mexico’s demands in every shape and form; even to the detriment of our country. You still avoided the issue of Mexico’s hypocrisy, but I figured you out a thread or two ago that you don’t give a chickenshit about that.
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### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/44 "2006-01-04T06:16:26Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Maybe some day your little boy will do something stupid like throw a rock at a cop. If he gets killed in retaliation will you still be whistling the same tune?
I’ve already told my kids not to do stupid shit like that before they were 7, let alone 18. If they do it, they do it knowing the consequences…and I bet my life they won’t.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/45 "2006-01-04T06:23:32Z")
> [@levdrakon](#):
>
> i know business wants cheap labor, but that’s very, very different than implying\* America will collapse if it doesn’t get cheap labor. Things adjust. We’ve seen that when gas prices go up. people pay.
>
> But no one needs cheap hotel maids, or vegetable pickers, or leaf-blowing “gardeners.” None of that will result in the downfall of American society if the prices went up.
>
> Business is just greedy, and they like to make it sound like it’s some sort of threat to national security if you can’t get broccoli for $.99/lb. Grow your own damn broccoli! Mow your own damn lawn! Pay $10 more for your hotel room!
>
> \*By “implying” my intent is not to put words in **Sam’s** mouth. I’m just using his post as a launch pad for my little tirade.
I’m mixed on this, I’ve always thought the Agri business wouldn’t work well without the cheap labor of migrant workers from Mexico, but I agree on most of the rest of it.
**CBEscapee** : I am sorry the person got shot, but I definitely knew from a young age to be respectful to police of all sorts. You might consider him a Darwin award recipient.
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/46 "2006-01-04T06:24:11Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#):
>
> I’m amazed at your attitude that we have to be subservient to Mexico’s demands in every shape and form; even to the detriment of our country. You still avoided the issue of Mexico’s hypocrisy, but I figured you out a thread or two ago that you don’t give a chickenshit about that.
You mean asking for an investigation into a deadly unjustified shooting means asking for your subservience? And such an investigation is somehow detrimental to the US?
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/47 "2006-01-04T06:28:30Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#):
>
> I’ve already told my kids not to do stupid shit like that before they were 7, let alone 18. If they do it, they do it knowing the consequences…and I bet my life they won’t.
How quaint!! What other little bizarre lectures besides don’t throw rocks at cops have you given the tots? I nominate you for Father of the Year.
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/48 "2006-01-04T06:30:36Z")
**CBEscapee** : I am sorry the person got shot, but I definitely knew from a young age to be respectful to police of all sorts. You might consider him a Darwin award recipient.
[/QUOTE]
And maybe he was just a scared young man who did something stupid. Did you ever do something atypical to your intelligence?
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/49 "2006-01-04T06:32:38Z")
> [@levdrakon](#):
>
> I don’t believe there are any jobs Americans won’t do. There are lots of jobs Americans won’t do for shit pay. Too bad for Business.
Obviously I mean that given the pay and conditions, there are some jobs Americans won’t do. Picking lettuce for $3/hr, for example. But there are plenty of jobs that are only worth doing for that kind of wage. If the job is only worth $3/hr in added value to a company, then it will either hire someone for $3, or not hire anyone at all. Paying a better wage for that job is not an option, because no wants lose money hiring people.
Take Nannies. If a Nanny earns $800/mo, that puts her in range of plenty of upper middle class people. It’s basically a car payment on an Audi. But get rid of her, and force the price of Nanny labor up to, say, $2,000/mo, and suddenly there will be no jobs for nannies. Women will stay home and look after their kids, because the family can’t afford $24,000 per year for child care.
> [@](#):
>
> I know lots of spoiled, white, spoon-fed Americans who will gladly go to Alaska every summer and work their ass off knee-deep in fish guts because the pay is good.
>
> There ain’t a job shitty enough an American won’t do it. You just gotta pay 'em. What’s wrong with that?
I would think it goes without saying that people will work at just about anything if the compensation is good enough. And if the conditions are good enough, people will work for very little. For example, Skiing fanatics who work resorts for minimum wage for the chance to live on a hill in the winter. If that ski lift job was actually manning, say, an oil rig outside in the same weather, you might find you have to pay them significantly more.
As for what’s wrong with losing those jobs, well, it hurts the economy. It hurts _people_. Not just the immigrants who found work they couldn’t get at home, but the people who benefit from the cheap labor. If the cost of maintaining people’s gardens goes up, people will have to divert money into gardening that they might have spent on cars, or dining out, or reinvested in the economy. It’s roughly akin to deciding thaat you’re going to go back away from automated production, to ‘create jobs’. You can do that, but be prepared to have a lot less stuff.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/50 "2006-01-04T06:38:46Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> **CBEscapee** : I am sorry the person got shot, but I definitely knew from a young age to be respectful to police of all sorts. You might consider him a Darwin award recipient.
And maybe he was just a scared young man who did something stupid. Did you ever do something atypical to your intelligence?
[/QUOTE]
I have done many dumb things but I definately have never given a cop a chance to over react.
If I actually fell 30 feet to my death by walking along the outside girders of a bridge, I believe someone would have been justified in insulting my intelligence.
So actually I guess you have a point, but still why throw a rock at someone with a gun. You might as well bait a bear.
Nothing wrong with investigating the shooting however, the way I see is if a law enforcement officer kills someone with his gun, an investigation should take place.
Jim
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### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/51 "2006-01-04T06:42:46Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#):
>
> I’m mixed on this, I’ve always thought the Agri business wouldn’t work well without the cheap labor of migrant workers from Mexico, but I agree on most of the rest of it.
The area I live in is a huge agricultural area. Salinas Valley, just a few miles from here is known as the “Lettuce Capitol of the World.” The whole country eats our lettuce, our artichokes, our garlic, our asparagus, our cabbage.
The illegal Mexicans who do a lot of the picking actually make pretty good money. Don’t bother showing up on a farm asking for a job if you’re American. All those jobs are reserved for illegal Mexicans. There are lots of high-school and college kids who could do the work, but it’s not even available to them.
Same thing with the local restaurants. If you’re a high-school kid, good luck finding a job as a bus-boy. It’s easier to pay a Mexican kid under the table than fill out the paperwork and hire an American kid for the same pay.
If you’re an American high-school kid and you want to work, you’re best bet is a job at truly shitty fast-food joint, where they’ll only pay you minimum wage. I used to part-time as a bartender at a local restaurant/bar and all the busboys were illegals, making at least $100/night, tax-free, under the table. They’d go out and buy cars. Could an American kid get the same job? Not likely. Why? Because America needs cheap labor or we’ll collapse!
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### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/52 "2006-01-04T06:54:42Z")
I agree with **JRFranchi** …If the guy would have just kept running instead of STOPPING, turn around, grab some rocks and start throwing them at the officer, the guy would have probably been here in this country the next day. So, was he actually thinking that throwing rocks was gonna help him get into the country any quicker? It sucks that he died, but dammit, don’t think that throwing rocks at an authority figure is a logical response.
> [@CB](#):
>
> How quaint!! What other little bizarre lectures besides don’t throw rocks at cops have you given the tots? I nominate you for Father of the Year.
Don’t mix ammonia with bleach. Don’t yell “Fire” in a crowded place. Don’t be a jerk. Normal stuff, ya know.
> [@](#):
>
> And maybe he was just a scared young man who did something stupid. Did you ever do something atypical to your intelligence?
Not that stupid, obviously.
> [@](#):
>
> You mean asking for an investigation into a deadly unjustified shooting means asking for your subservience? And such an investigation is somehow detrimental to the US?
Let them investigate. Won’t be the first…won’t be the last…But you didn’t ask for that, the rep from Mexico asked for that…You decided to spout criticisms at **Clothahump** , the BP officer and the “racists”. I was referring to your own personal demands that you feel that Mexico is entitled to…open borders, unlimited immigration (legal or illegal), all the milk and cookies the US has, etc. I see that you are becoming a good “bait and switch” salesman.
**CB** …You really have got nothing, do you? :wally
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/53 "2006-01-04T07:00:15Z")
One shot was fired, at a person throwing rocks. The person was not a child, but an adult.
While I deplore the fact that the man died, the gunshot may not even be the direct cause of the death. (Swimming the river with the open wound seems more likely.) It was almost certainly a contributing factor, though.
From the perspective of a New Yorker, the Border Patrol agent would have been justified in opening fire if this was the streets of New York City. Again, not that I would like it, but judging from past rulings, (Amadou Diallo), it seems like a clean case. The second closest analogy I can think of is the Palestians in Israel. Again, you throw rocks at the military, you get shot.
Don’t throw rocks at cops, kids. It’s stupid and you can die from it.
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### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/54 "2006-01-04T07:07:43Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> Don’t throw rocks at cops, kids. It’s stupid and you can die from it.
How quaint! :rolleyes: I nominate you for Father of the Year. 😉
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/55 "2006-01-04T08:08:09Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> You mean asking for an investigation into a deadly unjustified shooting means asking for your subservience? And such an investigation is somehow detrimental to the US?
Well, since you’ve already decided it’s unjustified, what’s the point of investigating?
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/56 "2006-01-04T08:12:19Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Easy for me to say? What a fucking moron. It’s not even a criminal offense to illegally enter the USA let alone a capital crime. Fuck off.
How can it not be a criminal offense to do someting illegal? You “logic” needs work son.
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Yeah tell me the reaction of the posters supporting the shooting aren’t racial. If a cop in the States gunned down a white teenager that had chucked a rock at him and run, it would be a major scandal. But because it was a Mexican trying to sneak across the border it is justified. Fucking gringo hypocrisy.
First you ask me if I would support it in my hometown, then when I say yes you move the goalposts and say that I wouldn’t support it if the person in question was “white”. Well, you’re wrong. White thugs should be treated the exact same as thugs of any other color. Try again. Oh, I see you did:
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Maybe some day your little boy will do something stupid like throw a rock at a cop. If he gets killed in retaliation will you still be whistling the same tune?
I have 2 sons. One who is 11, and one who is 13 months. They are the light in my life, and in them I see a reason for this madness we call life. I am doing my very best to teach them right from wrong, and to teach them how to react to every situation I can concieve of. If one of them was killed by a policeman after attacking him I would be devistated. I might even consider suicide because life without either one of them would be very dark indeed. However, I would never blame the policeman for my son’s crime. Is that clear enogh for you?
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/57 "2006-01-04T08:21:38Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#):
>
> The biggest elephant in the room here is the fact that the borders will _never_ be closed, because the U.S. benefits greatly from having access to low-cost labor. If every illegal alien is rounded up and shipped home, people will lose their nannies, gardeners, produce farmers, and general laborers.
>
> The fact is, the current situation with illegal immigration is the result of a nod-and-a-wink between the U.S. and Mexico that yes, it’s illegal to sneak into the country, but we might not go looking too hard for such people, because they’re damned useful to us.
>
> Now the political winds are changing, mostly for the wrong reasons, and there will be some kind of ‘crackdown’, to the detriment of both countries.
>
> The illegals are not generally taking jobs away from Americans. They are doing jobs that Americans won’t do. Jobs that simply aren’t valuable enough to entire a typical American job seeker when they can be paid no less than minimum wage.
>
> Basically, just like other government interventions in the marketplace, the minimum wage and/or the general wealth of America has created a black market in labor.
Sam, I generally agree with what you have to say, but in this case I think you’re wrong. Illegals aren’t doing jobs that Americans won’t do, they are doing jobs that Americans won’t do for the wages being offered because there are illegals doing them for the lower wages. That’s convienent for everyone(except the illegals) because corporations get lower labor costs and consumers get lower prices. Illegals have created a supply of low cost labor and then fulfilled the demand or it. I think we would be better served by getting rid of all the illegals and paying a higher price for the services they previously supplied. Americans will do menial labor jobs, as long as the compensation is there, and then the money stays in our economy. Right now illegals are siphoning 16 billion a year out of the economy. and that’s got to stop.
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### Author:  [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/58 "2006-01-04T10:34:27Z")
I had a rock hit me in the corner of my eye when I was a teen. The kid who threw it was just joking around, but that thing floored me. I started tearing-up in both eyes, I was instantly on the ground, had to be carried to the school nurse and an ambulance came. Fucked my shit up pretty bad. The size of the rock, as I recall, was about the size of a walnut.
Now, out in the middle of nowhere, alone, with an obviously aggressive young adult throwing rocks at me…And I have a gun, and a pocket knife, and probably keys to the car, with more guns in it.
So what would have happened if the guy threw a goose egg sized rock and hit the cop in the head? Would that upstanding person call an ambulance over the cops radio and wait for the proper authorities to come, because, heck, he was only trying to have a little fun?
-OR- did the cop have a reason to fear for his safety and the safety of others? What if that person knocked the cop out? Now you have a criminal in possession of everything that cop had (guns, uniforms, badges, car, etc).
Sorry, he got shot for attacking a police officer. A cop has a responsibility to protect others AND himself.
Remember the protester shot in Genoa in 2001 at the G8 conference? Amazing how that one got blown out of proportion. A cop was surrounded by 5+ masked protesters who were trying to get at him in his car. He was injured by a 2x4 thrown at him and then one of the protesters came at him with a large metal object otherwise known as a fire extinguisher. He shot and killed the kid. Soooo many people were outraged that the Italian police even had live ammunition, let alone that he was defending himself. It was all captured on camera, you can find the clips online, and I am amazed how people think it was an unjustified shooting. Surrounded, injured, and being attacked…Hmmm…Come at me with a large metal object and I’ll shoot you too.
Remember kids- don’t attack people with guns!
-Tcat
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### Author:  [@mamboman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamboman)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/59 "2006-01-04T11:59:54Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#):
>
> And maybe he was just a scared young man who did something stupid. Did you ever do something atypical to your intelligence?
I have done many dumb things but I definately have never given a cop a chance to over react.
If I actually fell 30 feet to my death by walking along the outside girders of a bridge, I believe someone would have been justified in insulting my intelligence.
So actually I guess you have a point, but still why throw a rock at someone with a gun. You might as well bait a bear.
Nothing wrong with investigating the shooting however, the way I see is if a law enforcement officer kills someone with his gun, an investigation should take place.
Jim
[/QUOTE]
And the cop couldn’t have fired a warning shot? Or is it life that’s cheap, not just labour?
mm
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### Author:  [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/60 "2006-01-04T12:57:10Z")
> [@mamboman](#):
>
> And the cop couldn’t have fired a warning shot? Or is it life that’s cheap, not just labour?
This isn’t the movies: there’s no such thing, unless you’re maybe talking crowd control. It takes a good few seconds to clear your holster and fire a round, and an assailant - or potential assailant, and someone chucking rocks at a cop isn’t likely to be given the benefit of the doubt - can cover a lot of ground and be upside of your head in that time. If a cop shoots, he _means_ it: _ergo_, you don’t give an armed cop a reason to think you’re threatening him. Rocks count as threats.
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