# Happy now Clothahump?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 4, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312 "2006-01-04T00:50:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/61 "2006-01-04T13:29:15Z")
> [@mamboman](#):
>
> And the cop couldn’t have fired a warning shot? Or is it life that’s cheap, not just labour?
>
> mm
My WAG is that is why they need to investigate every shooting. I don’t know if there is any more information to gather however.
It is terrible the 18 year old got shot and then died trying to escape.
It was very stupid to throw rocks at a member of the Border Patrol.
Jim
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/62 "2006-01-04T13:36:40Z")
The reports I’ve read so far say the kid was shot in the back as he was running back towards Mexico. If the agent could see him scoop up “several” rocks with one hand he certainly could have seen him running away from him.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/63 "2006-01-04T14:19:40Z")
Yep. That’s something I’m waiting to see the results of the inquiry on. But if the Border Patrol drew on you… wouldn’t you turn and run?
I don’t know, it could go either way, depending on testimony and evidence. But generally, I don’t see this as any larger than your average urban tragedy. Not that any urban tragedy isn’t sad, but it could have happened on any city street.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/64 "2006-01-04T15:30:52Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Easy for me to say? What a fucking moron. It’s not even a criminal offense to illegally enter the USA let alone a capital crime. Fuck off.
I agree it’s not a capital offense.
But why do you believe it’s not a criminal offense?
8 USC § 1325(a) provides as follows:
> [@](#):
>
> Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
Where did you get the idea it wasn’t criminal?
---
### Author:  [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/65 "2006-01-04T15:42:27Z")
I just caught this thread this morning for some reason.
There’s two issues - one is a cop that took an action that may or may not have been justifiable based on his being attacked by some asshole throwing rocks at him. My head leans towards it being justified, but IANAL, so I’ll let others figure it out. I can’t say I wouldn’t have reacted the same way for what that’s worth. I have a lot of cop friends, and they’d be laughing out loud at the suggestion of a “warning shot”, I know that much. Cops pull their guns only with the intention of using it. Shooting off bullets into the air when you don’t know where they’ll land is just stupid. You aim a bullet, and plan for it to stop when it hits the intended target. What happened to that kid is a tragedy, but one that he more than anyone else had the power to avoid.
But the problem I have here is with the OP and the attitude that I get from some of the Mexican officials that somehow we’re required to just open the doors and let anyone walk across the border. I don’t remember who made the point back there, probably on the first page, but that’s the whole point of national sovereignty - being able to control your border crossings.
Whatever reasons someone might have for crossing into the US from Mexico, there are plenty of LEGAL ways to do it. Running across a stream bed is not the legal way, which makes it ILLEGAL. (That’s for **CBEscpaee** , who doesn’t seem to grasp that much)
For the record, I’m Mexican - 100% mexican descent. My grandparents were friends in Jalisco, and came here in the 20’s. One settling in Iowa, the other in Chicago. All came across legally, became citizens, worked to support their families (18 kids between them) at tax-paying jobs and made sure their kids learned english.
In that first generation of kids, there are 8 males, all are vetrerans, including 3 Purple Hearts, two from WWII, one from Korea and a small forest of combat medals from WWII. One uncle made the military his career and retired from the marines as an officer having started as an enlistee. Also in that first generation are a lawyer and a doctor, one VP of a national corporation, and 3 that got elected to public office and served together probably over 50 years. On my father’s side, 6 of the 7 kids at some point in their lives followed in my grandfather’s footsteps and were professional musicians. One uncle recently retired after being a fairly well known latin bandleader in the LA area for about the past 40 years, literally dozens of records and CD’s to his credit. There’s some overlap in there, so stop doing the math, ok?
The next generation, myself and my cousins include (I’ll probably forget some, but here goes):
- 3 police officers, including a Sergeant in the Des Moines Police Dept. that’s been decorated numerous times for his drug/gang work.
- 4 professional musicians, including one that was part of a team that’s so far recieved two Oscar nominations for movie work.
- 3 public school administrators
- 2 more doctors
- 1 cousin that’s spent most of her adult life in Africa working in orphanages as a missionary.
- Numerous homemakers, hourly workers, foremen, and a shop owner.
To my knowledge, none of us- NONE has been arrested for anything other than some stupid juvenile things. None of us has served time, none of us is stupid enough to launch rocks at someone wearing a gun and all of us whether we always DO the right thing, knows enough to not cry about being unfairly treated when we get caught doing something stupid.
The cousins I’ve talked to about the mexican immigration issue all seem to be of the same mind: Get here legally. There’s not a lot of sympathy for people that want to be Americans and live under our laws, but whose very first act is to break a law just getting into the country. That’s pretty fucking hypocritical.
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### Author:  [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/66 "2006-01-04T15:47:21Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Its amazing the lengths some of you are going to to justify some chickenshit border cop using excessive force.
“Hey, I bet if I throw some rocks at that border guard, he’ll let me right in!”
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### Author:  [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/67 "2006-01-04T16:10:11Z")
> [@levdrakon](#):
>
> Same thing with the local restaurants. If you’re a high-school kid, good luck finding a job as a bus-boy. It’s easier to pay a Mexican kid under the table than fill out the paperwork and hire an American kid for the same pay.
I find this assertion unbelievable. I am expected to believe that, all things being equal, a restaurant will hire an illegal over a legal just to save some paperwork? No, I can think of lots of reasons why a illegal might get hired, but saving on paperwork is not one of them.
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### Author:  [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/68 "2006-01-04T16:16:43Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> Illegals aren’t doing jobs that Americans won’t do, they are doing jobs that Americans won’t do for the wages being offered because there are illegals doing them for the lower wages.
There are jobs that illegals are doing that aren’t worth doing at full wage. Now one could make an argument that that’s fine – drop those jobs. But I don’t think there is a good argument that there would be a landscapping business if the employees pulled in $15/hr.
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### Author:  [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/69 "2006-01-04T16:33:15Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> From this thread: [Annex Mexico](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=350190&page=2&pp=50)
>
> Looks like you got your wish, you lump of shit.
>
> [Mexico opens investigation into U.S. shooting of migrant](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/01/03/state/n053844S10.DTL)
Well, since I’m the guest of honor here, let’s just look at the cite quoted. Um-hum, um-hum…oh, looky here (bolding mine):
> [@](#):
>
> Martinez died Saturday in a Tijuana hospital, the Baja California state attorney general’s office said. He was shot the day before by a U.S. Border Patrol agent near a metal wall separating Tijuana from San Diego, according to witnesses cited by Mexican officials.
> Raul Martinez, a spokesman for the Border Patrol said the agent had been “assaulted by an individual who threw a large size rock.”
> “ **The agent, fearing for his life at that time, fired one round at the individual** , who fled back to Mexico,” Martinez said Monday.
> The spokesman, who is not related to the dead 18-year-old, said U.S. investigators were unsure if the victim had been struck by the bullet because he crossed back into Mexican territory.
> Mexico’s federal Attorney General’s Office said the probe was opened against “whomever is found to have been responsible,” but did not name a suspect. Mexico generally does not try to apply its laws to events that occurred in other nations.
> **The attorney general’s statement said Martinez was with four other people when he was shot.**
Let’s add up what this story tells us. ONE U. S Border Agent is confronting FIVE people committing a crime. One of the criminals attempts to injure or kill the officer with a rock. The officer shoots him in self-defense.
**CBEscapee** , you are a totally ignorant twit. First off for pitting me over this - this incident had absolutely nothing to do with my post or my expressed viewpoint. Second, for pitting an officer for responding with deadly force in self-defense against a deadly force attack. And don’t kid yourself for a moment that a rock is not a lethal weapon. People have been beating each other’s heads in with rocks for millenia. If you don’t believe that, go back and research the history of the sling and the trebuchet, among other things.
The asshole that threw the rock deserves a Darwin Award nomination. And you deserve a :wally of the Year nomination for your stupidity in making this post.
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### Author:  [@Albert\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Albert_Rose)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/70 "2006-01-04T17:11:08Z")
Okay, people, listen up. I’m going to sneak on that property over there. The problem is, it would be illegal. Also, there are a bunch of guys with guns who will arrest me if they catch me, chase me for a bit if I run, or shoot me if I attack them.
I have an idea - I’m going to throw rocks at one of them. That should help.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/71 "2006-01-04T17:21:03Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#):
>
> I’m pretty sure DHS has teleprompters at all key facilities that keep agents updated on the latest **clothahump** policy.
Well sure, but do they know where **Bosda** is?
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### Author:  [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/72 "2006-01-04T17:27:34Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#):
>
> Dontcha know **Clothahump** ’s posts are powerful stuff, and are immediately implemented into US policy as soon as he submits them?
Thank you for the compliment and the vote of confidence.
However, I’m sorry to disappoint you. The only means that I have of influencing US policy are the same as yours: I contact my elected reps, and I vote.
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### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/73 "2006-01-04T17:31:12Z")
> [@AlbertRose](#):
>
> Okay, people, listen up. I’m going to sneak on that property over there. The problem is, it would be illegal. Also, there are a bunch of guys with guns who will arrest me if they catch me, chase me for a bit if I run, or shoot me if I attack them.
>
> I have an idea - I’m going to throw rocks at one of them. That should help.
Try using racial insults at them, it’ll win them over to your side.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/74 "2006-01-04T18:08:16Z")
> [@CaveMike](#):
>
> There are jobs that illegals are doing that aren’t worth doing at full wage. Now one could make an argument that that’s fine – drop those jobs. But I don’t think there is a good argument that there would be a landscapping business if the employees pulled in $15/hr.
I disagree. What you would lose is the big mega landscapers who depend on lots of illegal workers for profit, but there would be plenty of little guys to fill the gap. I have a buddy who is in landscaping and every summer he hires a couple of workers, usually college kids, for about $8-9/hour, and he does fine. All that is besides the point. the jobs that still need to be done will be done, and those that don’t, won’t be. Things will adjust. 50 years ago Americans did all those “jobs Americans won’t do”, I see know reason to believe that if illegals disappeared they wouldn’t do them again. Now, prices for some things would go up, but so what? I’ll pay 2 a head for lettuce instead of .99 if it pumps 16 billion dollars a year back into local economies AND removes the drain on goods and services that illegals cause taxpayers, and I suspect most people would as well.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/75 "2006-01-04T18:20:38Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> The reports I’ve read so far say the kid was shot in the back as he was running back towards Mexico.
Stop calling this guy a kid!! He’s 18 year old, and there is no criminal situation in which he wouldn’t be treated as an adult. It is illegal to cross the border without going thru an official check point. This adult knew that. It’s a tragedy that he was killed, but a tragedy that he brought on himself-- first by knowingly breaking the law, and second by attempting to physically harm the border patrol agent. Had he surrendered, the worst that would have happened to him (assuming he hasn’t committed any other crimes) is that he would have been sent back to Mexico, alive.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/76 "2006-01-04T18:25:57Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> I’ll pay 2 a head for lettuce instead of .99 if it pumps 16 billion dollars a year back into local economies…
Man, do you eat a lot of lettuce!!! 🙂
Actually, if there was no cheap labor in this country to do this farm work, I suspect much of the farming would go to where the cheap labor is. I’m not saying that is necessarily a bad thing (I don’t think it is), but don’t just assume that if cheap labor disappeared that the only solution would be to raise wages here.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/77 "2006-01-04T18:43:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Egyptian police have fired into the air to warn Palestinian gunmen who seized bulldozers and demolished part of the border fence between Gaza and Egypt
[Gunmen bulldoze Gaza border area](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580316.stm)
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/78 "2006-01-04T19:13:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Stop calling this guy a kid!! He’s 18 year old, and there is no criminal situation in which he wouldn’t be treated as an adult.
Unless you’ve realized that you posted a stupid thread and are trying to garner whatever sympathy for the deceased you can.
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### Author:  [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/79 "2006-01-04T19:35:33Z")
Shooting an adult for throwing rocks seems to me to be a serious over reaction. Especially if the shooting occurs when the rock thrower is now running away.
Shooting an adult for crossing an international boundary depends on the laws associated with that international boundary. I feel the shooter needs to show they were in reasonable fear of their life or were acting in accordence with the mexican/usa border laws or else face criminal proceedings.
The race, nationality of the shooter or shootee, the rules at other boarders within USA or Mexico and all other information seems to me to be irrelivent.
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/80 "2006-01-04T19:49:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I agree it’s not a capital offense.
>
> But why do you believe it’s not a criminal offense?
>
> 8 USC § 1325(a) provides as follows:
>
> Where did you get the idea it wasn’t criminal?
I guess I got the idea from the same statute that you quoted but conveniently omitted section (b).
“(b) Improper time or place; **civil penalties**
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a **civil
penalty** of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a **civil penalty** under
this subsection.”
Are civil penalties applied to criminal offenses?
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