# Happy now Clothahump?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 4, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312 "2006-01-04T00:50:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/81 "2006-01-04T19:58:19Z")
Attempting to enter the US illegally is not a criminal offense. Assault on a peace officer is.
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/82 "2006-01-04T20:04:34Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> How can it not be a criminal offense to do someting illegal? You “logic” needs work son.
It is illegal to park in a no parking zone, to litter, to operatea motorcycle without a permit etc. Now dipshit, tell me which one of those is a criminal offense?
Go buy a brain, I’ll pay the bill.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/83 "2006-01-04T20:18:33Z")
> [@Maureen](#):
>
> Attempting to enter the US illegally is not a criminal offense. Assault on a peace officer is.
Title 18 is the criminal code, ergo enterring the US illegal is indeed a crime. You are probably confusing that with staying in the US illegally, which is not currently a crime, but there is a movement to make it so.
**CBEscapee** : That just means there are criminal and civil penalties. Again, title 18 is the criminal code.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/84 "2006-01-04T20:24:49Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> It is illegal to park in a no parking zone, to litter, to operatea motorcycle without a permit etc. Now dipshit, tell me which one of those is a criminal offense?
All of them are criminal offenses, punshable with summary fines (at the minimum). Want proof? Get caught and plead “Not Guilty”, try to tell the local District Justice or Magistrate that they do not constitute crimes, and tell me what the result is.
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### Author:  [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/85 "2006-01-04T20:32:00Z")
Thanks, **John Mace**. Still, is there any reason why the person would not be charged with felonious assault on a peace officer _as well as_ entering the country illegally? It seems **CBEscapee** , you are ignoring the assault.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/86 "2006-01-04T20:36:14Z")
> [@Maureen](#):
>
> Thanks, **John Mace**. Still, is there any reason why the person would not be charged with felonious assault on a peace officer _as well as_ entering the country illegally? It seems **CBEscapee** , you are ignoring the assault.
No, but he abd \*\*Bricker \*\*were only discussing whether it was a crime to enter the US illegally. And, although it is a crime, I think SOP is to simply send them back, not to prosecute (unless the guy is a suspected terrorist or otherwise engaging in criminal activity). Assaulting a law enforcement officer is another matter altogether…
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/87 "2006-01-04T20:36:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Title 18 is the criminal code, ergo enterring the US illegal is indeed a crime. You are probably confusing that with staying in the US illegally, which is not currently a crime, but there is a movement to make it so.
>
> **CBEscapee** : That just means there are criminal and civil penalties. Again, title 18 is the criminal code.
Then hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of Americans hiring the illegals are also criminals:
_“Section 1324a. Unlawful employment of aliens
(a) Making employment of unauthorized aliens unlawful
(1) In general
It is unlawful for a person or other entity -
(A) to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment
in the United States an alien knowing the alien is an
unauthorized alien (as defined in subsection (h)(3) of this
section) with respect to such employment, or
(B)(i) to hire for employment in the United States an
individual without complying with the requirements of
subsection (b) of this section or (ii) if the person or entity
is an agricultural association, agricultural employer, or farm
labor contractor (as defined in section 1802 of title 29), to
hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the
United States an individual without complying with the
requirements of subsection (b) of this section.”_
And if someone is charged with a criminal offense, it is my understanding that they have the right to a jury trial. Hmm… maybe the apprehended illegals should start demanding their right to trial is respected. Now THAT would be a major fucking problem for the US wouldn’t it, someone demanding their rights under US law?
Of course you also aren’t technically a criminal until you are convicted of a crime,are you?
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### Author:  [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/88 "2006-01-04T20:37:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Actually, if there was no cheap labor in this country to do this farm work, I suspect much of the farming would go to where the cheap labor is. I’m not saying that is necessarily a bad thing (I don’t think it is), but don’t just assume that if cheap labor disappeared that the only solution would be to raise wages here.
Cheal labor is only part of a larger issue regarding protected markets, tariffs, duties, minimum wage, etc. I’m all about efficient markets and if Mexico, Thailand, The Philippines, Ghana, etc. can all produce cheaper farm/agricultural products, then I’m all for it. However, the markets are distorted by protectionist policies like duties, tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping laws, etc. Minimum wage doesn’t help either: as others have pointed out, some jobs just aren’t worth doing at min. wage. No one wants a $2 head of lettuce, much as they don’t want a $5/lb potato. All parties would be better off if they traded openly and used their comparative advantage to compete in the market.
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/89 "2006-01-04T20:41:53Z")
> [@Maureen](#):
>
> Thanks, **John Mace**. Still, is there any reason why the person would not be charged with felonious assault on a peace officer _as well as_ entering the country illegally? It seems **CBEscapee** , you are ignoring the assault.
There has been no proven assault. Only the agent’s word. (And we all know that cops would never try to cover their asses with false or misleading statements) Open an investigation and try to find the truth. Regardless, I still hold the opinion that excessive force according to US standards was used.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/90 "2006-01-04T20:51:58Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> There has been no proven assault. Only the agent’s word. (And we all know that cops would never try to cover their asses with false or misleading statements) Open an investigation and try to find the truth.
I don’t think anyone disagrees with this.
> [@](#):
>
> Regardless, I still hold the opinion that excessive force according to US standards was used.
So, without knowing the truth, you are sure of your opinion. Do you revel in your stupidity or your ignorance?
We also don’t know what killed the guy, so we don’t know if excessive force was used.
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### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/91 "2006-01-04T20:59:11Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Then hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of Americans hiring the illegals are also criminals:
Prosecute 'em!
> [@](#):
>
> And if someone is charged with a criminal offense, it is my understanding that they have the right to a jury trial. Hmm… maybe the apprehended illegals should start demanding their right to trial is respected. Now THAT would be a major fucking problem for the US wouldn’t it, someone demanding their rights under US law?
>
> Of course you also aren’t technically a criminal until you are convicted of a crime,are you?
That depends on the nation in question, but in this case yes. However what are they going to do if deported? Sue through the World Court? Hire a lawyer so they can be allowed back in the US to stand trial? 😕
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/92 "2006-01-04T21:00:15Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> I don’t think anyone disagrees with this.
> So, without knowing the truth, you are sure of your opinion. Do you revel in your stupidity or your ignorance?
>
> We also don’t know what killed the guy, so we don’t know if excessive force was used.
It has been established that he died of a gunshot wound to the back. The agent admits to shooting at him and seeing him clutch his right shoulder. It has already been established that he only had one bullet wound. I don’t think anyone really has an argument here.
The agent says he fired because the dead guy threw a rock at him, well at least in one qoute he says that. In another he said the alien made a throwing motion with his arm. IF he threw a rock and fled as the agent says, then I say it was excessive force. If he didn’t throw a rock then the agent absolutely used excessive force.
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/93 "2006-01-04T21:01:34Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#):
>
> Prosecute 'em!
>
> That depends on the nation in question, but in this case yes. However what are they going to do if deported? Sue through the World Court? Hire a lawyer so they can be allowed back in the US to stand trial? 😕
How can they be legally deported without first proving in a court of law that they are indeed illegally in the country?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/94 "2006-01-04T21:03:26Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Then hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of Americans hiring the illegals are also criminals:
Are you expecting me to disagree with that? It’s an indisputable fact.
> [@](#):
>
> And if someone is charged with a criminal offense, it is my understanding that they have the right to a jury trial. Hmm… maybe the apprehended illegals should start demanding their right to trial is respected. Now THAT would be a major fucking problem for the US wouldn’t it, someone demanding their rights under US law?
Indeed. But then they’d have a criminal record, and it would go much tougher on them the next time. No, that’s a game of chicken that they don’t want to play.
> [@](#):
>
> Of course you also aren’t technically a criminal until you are convicted of a crime,are you?
No, but you aren’t technically supposed to throw rocks at law enforcement officials either.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/95 "2006-01-04T21:10:49Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> How can they be legally deported without first proving in a court of law that they are indeed illegally in the country?
Usually they confess and are given the choice of deportation or detention and prosecution.
What is your deal? Do you think we need to open our borders to anyone who wants to come in? There are estimated to be 11M illegals in this country. If we openned the border, that number would be 10x within a year.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/96 "2006-01-04T21:17:12Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Hmm… maybe the apprehended illegals should start demanding their right to trial is respected. Now THAT would be a major fucking problem for the US wouldn’t it, someone demanding their rights under US law?
I’m not as well versed on Constitutional law as other dopers, but I thought you had to be an American citizen to have rights under the Constitution.
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### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/97 "2006-01-04T21:21:28Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> It has been established that he died of a gunshot wound to the back.
Where has this been established? To date I’ve read no credible news report which clearly indicates exactly where the victim was struck. Indeed, according to [this](http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20060104-0936-mexico-us-immigration.html)and most other accounts, that particular is still unknown:
> [@](#):
>
> The Border Patrol says an agent fired one round in self-defense, after an unidentified man threw a large rock. Whether the shot hit anything was unclear, however, because the man fled back into Mexico.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/98 "2006-01-04T21:25:24Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#):
>
> I’m not as well versed on Constitutional law as other dopers, but I thought you had to be an American citizen to have rights under the Constitution.
No, although you don’t automatically get all the rights of a US citizen just by being here.
But, if an illegal alien commits a crime while here in the US, he can’t be punished for that crime except thru the US judicial system, and all the “regular stuff” applies.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/99 "2006-01-04T21:27:17Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#):
>
> The illegals are not generally taking jobs away from Americans. They are doing jobs that Americans won’t do.
I would also like to note (as others have) that this is a festering crock of hog drippings.
> [@](#):
>
> Obviously I mean that given the pay and conditions, there are some jobs Americans won’t do. Picking lettuce for $3/hr, for example. But there are plenty of jobs that are only worth doing for that kind of wage.
The example that comes to mind immediately for me is the hotel/motel industry. There’s lots of immigrant labor working in these jobs because the industry can get away with paying low wages and keeping organized labor out. I doubt highly that if illegal immigration were substantially curbed, that no American would take these jobs. They might just begin to pay a living wage.
> [@](#):
>
> If the cost of maintaining people’s gardens goes up, people will have to divert money into gardening that they might have spent on cars, or dining out, or reinvested in the economy.
Or they might actually get off their fat asses, go out and run their power equipment themselves.
Sheesh.
The irony is that with the “Americans won’t do these jobs” claim, **Sam** is parroting the same line happily used by both conservatives and liberals. For the former, it’s the irresistable lure of cheap, exploitable labor. For the latter, well, it’s also the attraction of cheap, exploitable labor, while telling onself that one is creating opportunities for poor downtrodden peoples at the expense of spoiled Americans.
Wouldn’t it be nice if Labor was represented by either major party in this country?
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/100 "2006-01-04T21:35:17Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Usually they confess and are given the choice of deportation or detention and prosecution.
>
> What is your deal? Do you think we need to open our borders to anyone who wants to come in? There are estimated to be 11M illegals in this country. If we openned the border, that number would be 10x within a year.
Nope, I never said that. In other debates on this subject I made the point that if the US was serious about stopping illegal immigration then IMO the most effective way is to sanction the people in the US that hire them. Demand fuels supply. When gringo businesses stop hiring them the flood will slow to a trickle. People aren’t going to risk their lives only on the hope of getting a job. Right now they know they’ll have little trouble finding one.
And can you show me where in the US Code that we have both been qouting from, says illegal is a violation of the criminal code?
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