# Happy now Clothahump?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 4, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312 "2006-01-04T00:50:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/101 "2006-01-04T21:51:16Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#):
>
> All of them are criminal offenses, punshable with summary fines (at the minimum). Want proof? Get caught and plead “Not Guilty”, try to tell the local District Justice or Magistrate that they do not constitute crimes, and tell me what the result is.
Is that so? So when you ask for a trial the first thing they do is book and fingerprint your ass, right moron?
Give me a cite, pendejo.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/102 "2006-01-04T21:58:13Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#):
>
> Where has this been established? To date I’ve read no credible news report which clearly indicates exactly where the victim was struck. Indeed, according to [this](http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20060104-0936-mexico-us-immigration.html)and most other accounts, that particular is still unknown:
Do you read Spanish? Tijuana papers published the findings of the Mexican forensic findings.
---
### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/103 "2006-01-04T22:07:51Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Do you read Spanish? Tijuana papers published the findings of the Mexican forensic findings.
Oc course, the Mexican authorites would never distort the truth to make the US look bad, now would they? Sure, show me your cites. I can read some Spanish.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/104 "2006-01-04T22:17:41Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> In other debates on this subject I made the point that if the US was serious about stopping illegal immigration then IMO the most effective way is to sanction the people in the US that hire them. Demand fuels supply. When gringo businesses stop hiring them the flood will slow to a trickle. People aren’t going to risk their lives only on the hope of getting a job. Right now they know they’ll have little trouble finding one.
I agree. That still doesn’t make it legal to come here, well, illegally.
> [@](#):
>
> And can you show me where in the US Code that we have both been qouting from, says illegal is a violation of the criminal code?
Bricker’s original quote cited [Title 18](http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title18/title18.html), which is the criminal code.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/105 "2006-01-04T22:49:19Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#):
>
> Oc course, the Mexican authorites would never distort the truth to make the US look bad, now would they? Sure, show me your cites. I can read some Spanish.
MAybe so but I don’t think anyone can beat your current governmnet in that endeavor.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/106 "2006-01-04T22:53:10Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> I guess I got the idea from the same statute that you quoted but conveniently omitted section (b).
>
> “(b) Improper time or place; **civil penalties**
> Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
> enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
> designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a **civil
> penalty** of -
> (1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
> attempted entry); or
> (2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
> an alien who has been previously subject to a **civil penalty** under
> this subsection.”
>
> Are civil penalties applied to criminal offenses?
The section I quoted provided CRIMINAL PENALITES:
> [@](#):
>
> …shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or **imprisoned not more than 6 months** , or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or **imprisoned not more than 2 years** , or both.
That clearly establishes the act as a criminal one.
_IN ADDITION_, it’s a civil violation, and creates civil liability. The purpose of civil and criminal penalities are different, and subject to different standards of proof. To impose the criminal sanctions mentioned in 8 USC § 1325(a), each element of the offense must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. To impose the civil sanctions listed in 8 USC § 1325(b), the offense must be proved by preponderance of the evidence.
I did not quote 8 USC § 1325(b) because it was not relevant to my point: showing that, CONTRARY TO YOUR CLAIM, it is indeed a criminal offense to enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers.
> [@](#):
>
> And can you show me where in the US Code that we have both been qouting from, says illegal is a violation of the criminal code?
Any conduct that is punishable by imprisonment is a crime. And, as has been correctly pointed out, 18 USC is the criminal code; any offense punishable under that chapter is definitionally criminal.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/107 "2006-01-04T22:56:03Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> I agree. That still doesn’t make it legal to come here, well, illegally.
> Bricker’s original quote cited [Title 18](http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title18/title18.html), which is the criminal code.
OK well I was using this site: [US Code](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/8/toc.html) and didn’t see anything calling it criminal.
Some interesting chapter headings under Title 18.
_Chapter 5. Alien Ownership Of Land
Chapter 7. Exclusion Of Chinese
Chapter 8. The Cooly Trade_
Don’t just love that history of legislated racial discrimination?? Cooly Trade?? What is that about, wine coolers or something?
---
### Author:  [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/108 "2006-01-04T22:59:54Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Some interesting chapter headings under Title 18.
>
> _Chapter 5. Alien Ownership Of Land
> Chapter 7. Exclusion Of Chinese
> Chapter 8. The Cooly Trade_
>
> Don’t just love that history of legislated racial discrimination?? Cooly Trade?? What is that about, wine coolers or something?
Did you read any of those?
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/109 "2006-01-04T23:00:53Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Don’t just love that history of legislated racial discrimination??
What I love is the history we have of repealing such laws.
The cooly trade laws were repealed before the invention of wine coolers, so that can’t be it. Must be something else. Maybe it’s a typo and they meant cooties. 😉
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/110 "2006-01-04T23:03:43Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Is that so? So when you ask for a trial the first thing they do is book and fingerprint your ass, right moron?
>
> Give me a cite, pendejo.
There’s a cite up there already. I posted it.
Mentiroso.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/111 "2006-01-04T23:08:10Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> OK well I was using this site: [US Code](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/8/toc.html) and didn’t see anything calling it criminal.
>
> Some interesting chapter headings under Title 18.
>
> _Chapter 5. Alien Ownership Of Land
> Chapter 7. Exclusion Of Chinese
> Chapter 8. The Cooly Trade_
>
> Don’t just love that history of legislated racial discrimination?? Cooly Trade?? What is that about, wine coolers or something?
You’re looking at (and linking to) Title 8, “Aliens and Nationality.”
My cite was from Title 8, yes, but it referred in the text to Title 18, “Crimes and Criminal Procedure.”
So an act punished under Title 18 is a crime. Even if the act is defined in Title 8.
8 ≠ 18
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/112 "2006-01-04T23:09:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> There’s a cite up there already. I posted it.
>
> Mentiroso.
A cite that shows parking violations are criminal?
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### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/113 "2006-01-04T23:13:14Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#):
>
> Did you read any of those?
Only the titles were posted.
But if you are trying to say that official racial discrimination didn’t exist then you don’t know anything about the history of immigration in the US.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/114 "2006-01-04T23:29:57Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> A cite that shows parking violations are criminal?
A cite that refutes this gem:
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Easy for me to say? What a fucking moron. It’s not even a criminal offense to illegally enter the USA let alone a capital crime. Fuck off.
Remember saying that? I know it was a while ago; perhaps it slipped your mind.
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### Author:  [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/115 "2006-01-04T23:34:10Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> Only the titles were posted.
>
> But if you are trying to say that official racial discrimination didn’t exist then you don’t know anything about the history of immigration in the US.
Only the titles were posted because the laws no longer exist. And I didn’t say anything about official racial discrimination, but a significant number of US citizens and their forefathers got here due to _legal_ immigration.
---
### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/116 "2006-01-04T23:34:16Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> A cite that shows parking violations are criminal?
[Here’s what my state says about it:](http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/022/chapter507/s507.13.html)
> [@](#):
>
> § 507.13. Crimes and offenses relating to the operation and parking of a motor vehicle.
>
> (a) Operation. Each of the following activities constitutes a summary offense under 18 Pa.C.S. § 7505 (relating to violation of governmental rules regarding traffic) when committed on a System facility.
>
> (1) Operation of a motor vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of the maximum posted limit.
>
> (2) Operation of a motor vehicle on a highway posted as closed to motor vehicles.
>
> (3) Operation of a motor vehicle without snow tires or chains on a designated snow emergency route during a declared snow emergency.
>
> (4) Operation of a motor vehicle causing noise which is unreasonably loud, raucous, jarring, disturbing or a nuisance to persons within the area of audibility.
>
> (5) Operation of a motor vehicle being used for business or commerce without specific written approval from the facility’s chief executive officer.
>
> (6) Operation of a motor vehicle in areas not designated for operation of motor vehicles.
>
> (b) Parking. Each of the following activities constitutes a summary offense under 18 Pa.C.S. § 7505 when conducted on a System facility.
>
> (1) Parking a motor vehicle other than in a designated or posted parking area.
>
> (2) Parking a motor vehicle which obstructs a gate, road, bicycle path, access way, drinking fountain, entrance, exit or road turnaround.
>
> (3) Parking a motor vehicle in an area which is posted or closed, without written approval of the facility’s chief executive officer or a designee.
>
> (c) Fines. The Board of Governors (Board) will set the amounts of the fines for each campus or facility upon the recommendation of the chancellor or the respective university president.
>
> (1) The chancellor shall submit requests from the presidents to the Board on an annual basis. The Board will vote in public session to approve or deny the recommended adjustments.
>
> (2) Notice of the amounts of the fines shall be contained in the published parking rules for each campus or facility.
What’s the first word? That’s right: crimes. Therefore, if you violate anything laid out in the statute you are a criminal.
I could do this 49 more times, but you must realize by now that you’re way off base.
---
### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/117 "2006-01-04T23:34:51Z")
> [@CaveMike](#):
>
> > [@levdrakon](#):
> >
> > Same thing with the local restaurants. If you’re a high-school kid, good luck finding a job as a bus-boy. It’s easier to pay a Mexican kid under the table than fill out the paperwork and hire an American kid for the same pay.
>
> I find this assertion unbelievable. I am expected to believe that, all things being equal, a restaurant will hire an illegal over a legal just to save some paperwork? No, I can think of lots of reasons why a illegal might get hired, but saving on paperwork is not one of them.
When you legally hire someone you have to pay them a wage, then you also have to deduct taxes, handle the Social Security, the unemployment insurance, worker’s compensation, etc. It’s more paperwork, it’s more expensive, and it increases your liability.
Hire an illegal, there’s none of that. Heck, in the busboy scenario you don’t even have to pay them, although I think they almost always do. It’s probably the prevailing minimum wage too, but it’s still cheaper because you don’t have to worry about all the taxes & insurances.
So here is exactly how it works at a place I know just down the street. It’s a decent restaurant. Not super fancy, not low-end either. Let’s say our illegal (but friendly and cute) busboy is clearing, and then setting tables for four waitresses & waiters. He’s also running ice for the bartender, bringing clean glasses, etc.
The waitstaff each make $120 in tips. They each tip out the bus boy $20. So does the bartender. That’s $100 right there. Tax free. How much do you have to earn in order to take home $100? The servers now have $100. Then they tip out the bartender. Let’s say they now have $90 in tips. Then they get taxed on the original $120, so let’s deduct another $25. Now they’ve made $65, legally. Busboy goes home with $100, illegally. We actually tried to “promote” one of our busboys to waiter, because his English had gotten good, and he seemed promising. He tried if for a few days and said “nope, the money’s better as a busboy, and it’s easier.”
Now I’m not saying every illegal busboy all over the country is making out so well, but that’s how it works around here.
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/118 "2006-01-04T23:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
[Here’s what my state says about it:](http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/022/chapter507/s507.13.html)
So this means you’re a criminal, doesn’t it?
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/119 "2006-01-04T23:49:14Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> So this means you’re a criminal, doesn’t it?
So? What’s your point?
---
### Author:  [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/happy-now-clothahump/338312/120 "2006-01-04T23:53:56Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#):
>
> So? What’s your point?
So like next time you get a parking ticket if you throw a rock at the meter maid, you deserve to get plugged right?
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