# Hara-kiri. Incorrect?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 27, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720 "2004-03-27T11:36:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/1 "2004-03-27T11:36:37Z")
In the recent Cecil article on [suicide](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040326.html), he mentions hara-kiri.
Now, with my extensive knowledge of History channel programs, I could swear that I was mindlessly drooling at the tv one day when I heard that _seppuku_ was the correct term and _hara-kiri_ was a term made up by us stupid gaijin.
So, has the master made a mistake? Or was he simply catering to his audience who might not have heard of _seppuku_?
I couldn’t find any cites on the web where people were getting upset about the use of the term _hara-kiri_, so it is possible that this History channel program was making it up.
---
### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/2 "2004-03-27T11:44:08Z")
Both titles are definitely correct Japanese. Seppuku is an on-yomi word, or a word read with the pronunciation imitative of the original Chinese characters. It is written thus:
切腹
The first character means “cut”; the second means “belly.”
Harakiri is a kun-yomi word; that is, read with original Japanese pronunciations. It is written thus:
腹切
See? The characters are simply reversed. Now, as to what word the bushi preferred way back then, I have no idea. Both words are used in Japanese conversation now, although, as you may imagine, it’s not a topic that comes up all the time.
---
### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/3 "2004-03-27T11:45:22Z")
BTW, you’ll be able to see those characters if you go into Display, then Encode in MS Explorer. Choose one of the Japanese selections until you can see it.
---
### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/4 "2004-03-27T12:04:02Z")
I’m not completely sure on this, but I thought that _seppuku_ referred more to the elaborate ritual that ended in _hara kiri_. It’s just a slightly different connotation.
---
### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/5 "2004-03-27T13:05:30Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#):
>
> I’m not completely sure on this, but I thought that _seppuku_ referred more to the elaborate ritual that ended in _hara kiri_. It’s just a slightly different connotation.
You may be onto something in that only educated bushi might have known (or bothered to use) a Chinese word like seppuku, whereas the vulgar might have known (or used) harakiri. I could research it, but I’m too lazy…
---
### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/6 "2004-03-27T13:15:04Z")
OK, in my Japanese dictionary (all Japanese), it says (my translation):
Seppuku. To die by cutting one’s own belly. Harakiri. [The lightest death penality for a bushi in teh Edo period.]
Harakiri. To commit suicide by cutting the belly. Seppuku.
(from Shougakukan Kokugojiten).
Both entries list the other word, but the bushi angle does seem stronger in the seppuku entry, as it is not listed in the other. Wording is also a little different.
If we look at the kokugojiten tool of www.goo.ne.jp…
Seppuku. [http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=��ʢ&kind=&mode=0&jn.x=18&jn.y=13](http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%C0%DA%CA%A2&kind=&mode=0&jn.x=18&jn.y=13)
Gives a little chunk of history. Mentions harakiri as a synonym.
Harakiri. [http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=ʢ��&kind=jn&mode=0&jn.x=30&jn.y=9](http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%CA%A2%C0%DA&kind=jn&mode=0&jn.x=30&jn.y=9).
Says it’s the same as seppuku. I guess we can safely say they’re the same. Under the seppuku entry, two other synonyms are also listed.
---
### Author:  [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/7 "2004-03-27T13:22:51Z")
My understanding was that after
---
### Author:  [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/8 "2004-03-27T13:24:48Z")
My understanding was that after Seppuku the supplicant was beheaded by an “official” in attendance as Seppuku was an honorable ritual suicide. Hari-kari is merely homestyle disembowelling for the plebs.
---
### Author:  [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/9 "2004-03-27T13:27:04Z")
> [@Aeschines](#):
>
> I could research it, but I’m too lazy…
Liar! 😛
That was actually a pretty impressive bit of ten-minute research! I bow before your excellent skills.
---
### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/10 "2004-03-27T13:50:56Z")
> [@don't ask](#):
>
> My understanding was that after Seppuku the supplicant was beheaded by an “official” in attendance as Seppuku was an honorable ritual suicide. Hari-kari is merely homestyle disembowelling for the plebs.
No, I see nothing to support this hypothesis. No distinction is made in either of the Japanese dictionaries I have consulted, nor have I ever heard such of such during my 7+ years in Japan.
However, the two words might have had a different nuance or connotation for people in the past. Keep in mind that only bushi (again, AFAIK) cut their own guts, Toshio Mishima being the nutcase exception to the rule.
---
### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/11 "2004-03-27T13:52:18Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#):
>
> Liar! 😛
>
> That was actually a pretty impressive bit of ten-minute research! I bow before your excellent skills.
The only area where I have any cred on SMDB is in Japanese language and culture. Gotta max out on that. 🙂 But thanks!
---
### Author:  [@Tokyo\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tokyo_Mann)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/12 "2004-03-27T17:10:28Z")
> [@don't ask](#):
>
> My understanding was that after Seppuku the supplicant was beheaded by an “official” in attendance as Seppuku was an honorable ritual suicide. Hari-kari is merely homestyle disembowelling for the plebs.
Huhh? The two terms are synonymous.
On a side note, “hara” belly or stomach is often used idiomatically in Japanese as “heart” is in English. 彼は腹の中は正直な男だ. “Kare ha nara no naka ha chojikina okoku da” He is an honest man at heart. Literally, he is an honest man in his belly.
“Kara wo kiru” to cut one’s belly means to take responsibility, but it also is used when a businessman has to pay for entertaining clients himself when he is unable to get reimbursed by the company. Believe me, in Tokyo, this in not for the meek.
Historically, suppuku was not as common as what is often believed in the West. It is extremely painful, which is why the second person cuts off the head (kubi wo kiru, now also used to mean to fire someone). Some people would just make a small cut to satisfy ritual. After a person was ordered to commit seppuku, he could postpone it by claiming to be too sick, and was allowed very generous recovery time, essentially making the punishment into a house arrest.
---
### Author:  [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/13 "2004-03-27T17:36:02Z")
> [@Tokyo\_Mann](#):
>
> It is extremely painful, which is why the second person cuts off the head (kubi wo kiru, now also used to mean to fire someone). Some people would just make a small cut to satisfy ritual.
Again this accords with my understanding that Seppuku was all about ritual and not actual “belly cutting”. The Kaishakunin, or “second” (generally a close friend of the supplicant) despatched them with a sharp sword at their signal. Even reaching for the knife was sufficient proof of intent. My belief that this is true stems from stuff I read years ago after seeing _47 Ronin_ where the 47 Samurai are compelled to commit Seppuku but in fact don’t do any “belly cutting”. I will check for a source a little more explanatory than a dictionary.
---
### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/14 "2004-03-27T17:37:57Z")
BTW, in the David Bowie movie, “Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence,” one of the prison guards mentions “hara-kiri,” as it is translated into the subtitles. However, you can very clearly hear him _saying_ “seppuku.”
---
### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/15 "2004-03-27T20:14:12Z")
> [@don't ask](#):
>
> Again this accords with my understanding that Seppuku was all about ritual and not actual “belly cutting”. The Kaishakunin, or “second” (generally a close friend of the supplicant) despatched them with a sharp sword at their signal. Even reaching for the knife was sufficient proof of intent. My belief that this is true stems from stuff I read years ago after seeing _47 Ronin_ where the 47 Samurai are compelled to commit Seppuku but in fact don’t do any “belly cutting”. I will check for a source a little more explanatory than a dictionary.
This was my, admittedly limited, understanding as well, although I acquired it from a different source. The two terms could very well be considered synonymous buy thesaurus standards, but I still think _sepukku_ connotes the rather elaborate ritual of belly-cutting while hara-kiri is a belly cutting that could occur right on the battlefield.
---
### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/16 "2004-03-27T20:48:14Z")
Here are some relevant quotes I got from dredging with google. I think they support the notion that the two words are certainly different in spirit.
> [@](#):
>
> Seppuku is better known in English as hara-kiri (written with the same kanji in reverse order 腹切), which has frequently been mispronounced as “hari-kari.” Of the two terms, hara-kiri is considered more vulgar.
> [@](#):
>
> As for the subject of the Japanese outlook on suicide, I think it’s important to note the differance between harakiri and seppuku. Seppuku is an honorable suicide, a good illustation of this would be the boy Emporer’s suicide in Lone Wolf and Cub. Harakiri is a dishonorable suicide, if a warrior becomes a prisoner for example.
> [@](#):
>
> Seppuku is a ritual suicide and considered as an honorable death. Seppuku was part of bushido. Hara-kiri means literally “stomach-cutting” and was the practised form of seppuku. When done outside a battle, it was performed in a formal ceremony. Spectators attended the event. The act was a painful one. The person doing hara-kiri had to slice up his abdomen. When finished he stretched out his neck. An assistant was waiting behind him and had to behead the suicide with one stroke of his sword.
> [@](#):
>
> Reasons for committing seppuku were connected to honor and disgrace. One occasion for committing seppuku was the death of the lord. It was an expression of grief at one’s master’s death and was the utmost form of loyalty to the lord. Other reasons were punishment. Seppuku could also be a way of showing a disagreement with one’s master. A frequent reason for committing hara-kiri was in a lost battle to avoid the disgrace of falling into the hands of an enemy.
> [@](#):
>
> Hara-kiri - Like seppuku it is ritual disembowelment. However, seppuku is honorable while hara-kiri implies disapproval.
---
### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2004, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/17 "2004-03-28T10:47:52Z")
Sorry, kids, this is just crap on the net, those quotes. If there’s any difference between the two words, it’s the rate at which they were used by different groups in Japan. I have yet to see any decent evidence that bushi preferred one or the other, or that the common folk preferred one or another. All I can say is that “seppuku,” because it is a pseudo-Chinese reading, is likely to have seemed more literary or intellectual.
---
### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/18 "2004-03-28T14:37:22Z")
At least as far as I understand (and as far as any dictionnary is concerned) the two terms are equivalent. I think **Aeschines** did a good job of pointing that out. I’ll add that _seppuku_ and _hara-kiri_ aren’t the only words. There is also _kappuku_ and _tofuku_.
As for _hara-kiri_ being more “vulgar”, I think I identified the original source of this assesment. A. B. Mitford was an early English diplomat in Japan who wrote a very popular book titled “Tales of Old Japan”. This is a book that was very influencial in forming the image that Europeans had of Japan. On page 40 of the paperback (you can read it [here](http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0804833214/ref=sib_vae_pg_40/103-0905449-6523854?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=seppuku&p=S015&twc=3&checkSum=k2%2BBtgnFHTv5qCwsrBjF5ldH8gTrcyRUoU5nNvurzZQ%3D#reader-link)) he adds the following footnote:
> [@](#):
>
> Purist in Japanese matters may object to the use of the words hara kiri instead of the more elegant expression Seppuku. I retain the more vulgar form as being better known, and therefore more convenient.
This requires some explanation. As has been touched on earlier in this thread, characters in Japanese can be read according to their Chinese roots (on-yomi) or their native Japanese meaning (kun-yomi). As a general matter of style, the more technical and formal the language, the more you will prefer on-yomi compounds over kun-yomi words. For instance, both _abunai_(kun-yomi) and _kiken_(on-yomi) mean the same thing - dangerous. You are, however, somewhat more likely to hear the former in everyday speech and the later in technical texts.
When Mitford writes that “hara-kiri” is vulgar, he means “vulgar” in the sense of “colloquial” or “casual”. This is not a specific statement on hara-kiri vs. seppuku but a general one on on-yomi vs. kun-yomi.
Mitford had the opportunity to witness an official seppuku and relates the episode in his book. The relevent passage can be found [on this page.](http://www.satanservice.org/coe/suicide/txt.suicsocapp) You might want to skip the rest of the page, but the lengthy quote is accurate. He also described in detail the rules and customs of this form of execution. You can browse the actual text [here.](http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0804833214/ref=sib_vae_pg_11/103-0905449-6523854?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=kaishaku&p=S0AQ&twc=9&checkSum=rfEn5EY12CvfVW8BpbzxLgrECpgu0HhjUczIQtPYzl4%3D#reader-link)
Hope this helped.
---
### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/19 "2004-03-28T14:48:24Z")
> [@Aeschines](#):
>
> Sorry, kids, this is just crap on the net, those quotes. If there’s any difference between the two words, it’s the rate at which they were used by different groups in Japan. I have yet to see any decent evidence that bushi preferred one or the other, or that the common folk preferred one or another. All I can say is that “seppuku,” because it is a pseudo-Chinese reading, is likely to have seemed more literary or intellectual.
All of those cites were from different websites, some certainly seemed reasonably legitimate: some dedicated to history of samurai, and one was a paper on philosophies on suicide. I think there is ample evidence that while the two words have the same denotation, they have different connotations, however subtle.
---
### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720/20 "2004-03-28T14:57:31Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#):
>
> I think there is ample evidence that while the two words have the same denotation, they have different connotations, however subtle.
However, not necessarily beyond _on_ and _kun-yomi_ style differences.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hara-kiri-incorrect/236720.md?page=2)