# Hard Atheism: Why So Aggressive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2001, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130 "2001-10-12T21:06:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/41 "2001-10-16T15:23:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*You appear to be (slowly) catching yourself before your ignorance becomes your downfall. > \*\* _Perceived_ ignorance. big stress on the _ **PERCEIVED** _. \*\* > [@](#): > > There have been (and are) too many top-class thinkers and writers throughout the course of history with deep and abiding faith in God (like Isaac Newton, for example) for you to dismiss them summarily and expect to have your intellect taken seriously. As you mature, you will find that your belligerence has effects you had not counted on, and you will regret those.\*\* Firstly, I think we’ve gone a bit overboard with my **belligerence**. I wasn’t that belligerent, and for the most part I wasn’t at all belligerent. Mostly people were mad about my opinions on Jesus, and that doesn’t mean my opinion has changed. \*\* > [@](#): > > Its not too late for you to recover, renounce the infantile manner in which you’ve behaved, and resolve to treat everyone here with courtesy and respect. In doing so, you will find your ideas being considered, rather than discarded out of hand. Watch some of the other atheists here, and see how they go about making their points. If you can wedge yourself somewhere in between Jab and Gaudere, you will have made tremendous progress for which we will all applaud you. > > But if you continue this one-tune act, you will lose all credibility, no one will take you seriously, and you will have wasted many wonderful opportunities to learn new things. I have a hunch that knoweldge is important to you. Have you ever heard the expression “Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater”? You’re doing exactly that by deciding that I, because of my faith, am a moron. \*\* Starting to get irked. We haven’t really discussed anything other than me offending people. Mostly all the discussion about God on this, or any board, is people making things up. Would you like to show me different? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/42 "2001-10-16T15:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > > In-your-face atheist = in-your-face fundamentalist Christian > > > > … just with a different philosophy. \*\* > > sans burning in hell. > > good point. \*\* The point is this: If in-you-face Christians are wrong, then **Lolo** is wrong to be in-your-face about atheism. You are acting hypocritically. You are the same as that loud, extreme Fundamentalist in Free Speech Alley that you see on your campus. You are him. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/43 "2001-10-16T15:32:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Mostly all the discussion about God on this, or any board, is people making things up. > > Would you like to show me different? No. I believe that I’m done now. All the best to you. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/44 "2001-10-16T15:32:32Z")
um, **MrO** , why do I care how you handle people who bother you? Why should I emulate you? maybe your actions are that of a coward. Maybe i wouldn’t tell you how you should handle your own business. thanks for the advice, though I think I’ll do whatever I want. > [@](#): > > what do you make of the apparent fact that everyone here finds you annoying? They respond, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/45 "2001-10-16T15:43:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > > > In-your-face atheist = in-your-face fundamentalist Christian > > > > > > … just with a different philosophy. \*\* > > > > sans burning in hell. > > > > good point. \*\* > > The point is this: > > If in-you-face Christians are wrong, then **Lolo** is wrong to be in-your-face about atheism. > > You are acting hypocritically. You are the same as that loud, extreme Fundamentalist in Free Speech Alley that you see on your campus. You are him. \*\* only i’m not just making things up. ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/46 "2001-10-16T15:51:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > **Why should I emulate you? maybe your actions are that of a coward.** Ooo, that stings, coming from someone I respect as much as I do you. Which was that, eloquence, or nice effect? To answer your question, though I doubt you’ll listen, maybe you should emulate me because I’m happy, and it’s pretty clear that you aren’t. But I care less and less about you and your happiness. > [@](#): > > \*\*They respond, don’t they? \*\* Yes, we respond, as we would to a baby’s cry. Anyway, thanks for clarifying that you are, in fact, just a troll, posting bile for the attention it brings your way. I pity you more than I do the Christian on the sidewalk, but neither of you merit much of my attention. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/47 "2001-10-16T16:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, we respond, as we would to a baby’s cry. Anyway, thanks for clarifying that you are, in fact, just a troll, posting bile for the attention it brings your way. I pity you more than I do the Christian on the sidewalk, but neither of you merit much of my attention. Agreed, MrO. I gave him every reasonable chance, and he chose to squander each and every one, even convincing himself that the majority of people opposing him — themselves atheists! — were merely upset by his infantile rantings about Jesus. Well, I’ve tossed out enough pearls, and I’m finished. Meanwhile, I would like to express my great admiration of you and other atheists here who have taught me very valuable lessons about my perceptions of other people and their worldviews. I came to this place thinking pretty rotten things about you people. For what it’s worth, I now count many of you among those whom I most respect, not just for your intellect, but for your exemplary character, morality, and just plain goodness. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/48 "2001-10-16T16:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrO \* > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*They respond, don’t they? \*\* > > Yes, we respond, as we would to a baby’s cry. Anyway, thanks for clarifying that you are, in fact, just a troll, posting bile for the attention it brings your way. I pity you more than I do the Christian on the sidewalk, but neither of you merit much of my attention. \*\* So you disagree with children being taught they’ll burn in hell, etc., yet you ignore the people spreading those beliefs? That makes so much sense. Thanks for clarifying. keep your pity. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/49 "2001-10-16T16:37:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > \*\*So you disagree with children being taught they’ll burn in hell … \*\* Who’s teaching their kids that? Very bad people who happen to call themselves “Christians”, that’s who. That is not a tenant of Chrisitan belief – if kids do “bad things”, they burn in hell. Almost no Christians spread such beliefs to anyone – maybe a few hundred nation-wide. But to you, they represent the whole of Christendom? Why do you take the most warped, extreme and lunatic rantings of a microscopic subset of self-proclaimed “Christians”, and apply those rantings as the mindset of every other Christian? Why do you paint the benign, private, non-Bible-literalist Christians with the same super-wide brush as the over-the-top Christian lunatic fringe? What’s the difference between your belligerence and the race hatred someone may feel after hypothetically being mugged by a Hispanic person? Should that person then hate all Hispanics? I don’t see a difference – it’s not wrong to be a certain race, and it’s not wrong to believe in a certain God. So you feel Christians are wrong. No problem. But because someone does not see the world the same way as you, belligerence against them is OK? Don’t give me that “if they’d shut up, I’ll shut up” argument – you don’t possibly expect me to believe that you are bombarded 24-7 by vicious Fundamentalists everywhere you turn. 99.999999% of Christians HAVE shut up as far as you are concerned, as we have never ever given you a hard time – so you have no legitimate beef against ALL Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/50 "2001-10-16T16:49:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > > \*\*So you disagree with children being taught they’ll burn in hell … \*\* > > Who’s teaching their kids that? Very bad people who happen to call themselves “Christians”, that’s who. That is not a tenant of Chrisitan belief – if kids do “bad things”, they burn in hell. Almost no Christians spread such beliefs to anyone – maybe a few hundred nation-wide. But to you, they represent the whole of Christendom?\*\* Do you believe in heaven and hell? if not, why call your self christian? ---
**Author:** ![absimia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbe5ce/32.png) [@absimia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absimia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/51 "2001-10-16T16:54:13Z")
I’ve ruminated about this for a while and have a question or two. Firstly, let me state my assumptions: 1. Most but not all Christians who proselytize are doing so out of goodness. They want to save your eternal soul, which they believe is in danger. They aren’t doing it to annoy or piss you off. 2. The vocal portion of any group is the portion that gets their agenda across. Look at the republican party for instance. There are scores of moderates out there, but who gets the press? Helms, Hatch, etc. Whenever anyone appears to be too moderate, the press starts wondering, “will this alienate the Christian conservatives?” and “Candidate X will be in trouble if they cannot get the support of the Christian conservatives” even though they (the C.C.) probably represent a minority amongst the party. 3. One can be open and emphatic about one’s belief (or in this instance, non-belief) without being “in-your-face” rude about it. Those assumptions stated (and feel free to pick them apart), what is wrong with trying to convert the heathens? If you feel that their beliefs truly do them harm, isn’t it morally imperative that you attempt to help them? If you do not stand up and preach your non-gospel, how are you going to help anyone? Sure, you’ll never convince a strong and true believer, but perhaps you’ll convince the fence sitters, those who are troubled by their religon, but see no other options. Let’s face it, atheism has a bad name and reputation. Its close cousin, Secular Humanism is used to demonize…well practically everything (at least where I came from). Why shouldn’t I be more vocal in my beliefs, perhaps it would cause some attention to be drawn to the fact that there are plenty of good, moral, ethical, etc atheists out there. Maybe it will help others out there feel more comfortable with their beliefs and doubts. Otherwise, we’ll all be closeted atheists. In closing, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the only Founding Father without a memorial/monument in Washington DC is Thomas Paine who was, in the words of Harry Truman, a “dirty little atheist”. Absimia ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/52 "2001-10-16T17:07:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by absimia \* > **One can be open and emphatic about one’s belief (or in this instance, non-belief) without being “in-your-face” rude about it.** No. That cannot be evaluated objectively. Your “open & emphatic” might be someone else’s “rude” – with neither party being unreasonable or incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/53 "2001-10-16T17:16:35Z")
**Moderator:** I think I have enough witnesses now. If necessary, I’ll formulate a debate in another thread. In the meantime, please close this one before its credible contributions by reasonable atheists become sullied. ---
**Author:** ![absimia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbe5ce/32.png) [@absimia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absimia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/54 "2001-10-16T17:24:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\*Why do you take the most warped, extreme and lunatic rantings of a microscopic subset of self-proclaimed “Christians”, and apply those rantings as the mindset of every other Christian? Why do you paint the benign, private, non-Bible-literalist Christians with the same super-wide brush as the over-the-top Christian lunatic fringe? > \*\* I know this was addressed to Lolo, and I know that what you say is true. Most of the Christians I know are not “over-the-top Christian lunatic fringe” although I think you are seriously underestimating how many nutballs are out there. However, there are many polite, nice, Christians who believe I am going to hell…some of them are even praying for me. 😃 However, they are the ones that get the most press. They are the most visible, if not the most numerous. I, personally, have no problems with them. I accept their nosiness in the spirit is is mostly given. I don’t mind their belief in where they think I’ll end up. However, I don’t think that means I shouldn’t cheerfully tell them that I believe their beliefs are wrong…if the non-spirit moves me to do so. I just would try and do it in a calm, assertive, non-judgemental way. You know, like “Get your hands off me you crazed barbaric heathen!” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/55 "2001-10-16T17:27:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > \*\*Do you believe in heaven and hell? > > If not, why call your self Christian? \*\* I believe heaven and hell exist, but not in the Biblical/classical sense of final resting places for the souls of the dead (altough – isn’t hell not explicitly described in the Bible?). I do not know what comes after death. FWIW, to me, heaven and hell are metaphors for peace/fulfillment and suffering/desire, respectively. As such, they exist on earth in the here and now, and we all move through both throughout our lives. That’s how I understand it. YMMV. For me, “Christian” does not necessarily mean “believer in the literal word of the Bible”. After all, “Christians” aren’t called “Biblicists”. Whatever you have learned personally about Christianity up till now is almost certainly a very narrow section of the varying, but connected, beliefs that make up mainstream Christian thought/morality. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/56 "2001-10-16T17:29:17Z")
Ok **absimia** , if you don’t mind I’ll ask you what I asked Lolo. > [@](#): > > However, there are many polite, nice, Christians who believe I am going to hell…some of them are even praying for me. So? Why does it matter what they think about you? Why does it amtter that they pray for you? How does it affect your life? ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/57 "2001-10-16T17:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > > \*\*Do you believe in heaven and hell? > > > > If not, why call your self Christian? \*\* > > I believe heaven and hell exist, but not in the Biblical/classical sense of final resting places for the souls of the dead (altough – isn’t hell not explicitly described in the Bible?). I do not know what comes after death. FWIW, to me, heaven and hell are metaphors for peace/fulfillment and suffering/desire, respectively. As such, they exist on earth in the here and now, and we all move through both throughout our lives. > > That’s how I understand it. YMMV. > > For me, “Christian” does not necessarily mean “believer in the literal word of the Bible”. After all, “Christians” aren’t called “Biblicists”. Whatever you have learned personally about Christianity up till now is almost certainly a very narrow section of the varying, but connected, beliefs that make up mainstream Christian thought/morality. \*\* I’m sorry, but isn’t Christianity based upon the belief that Jesus was the son of God? yes, it is. and what is that book called? it’s called the bible. and what are then all teachings of Christianity based on? the bible. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/58 "2001-10-16T17:43:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by absimia \* > **I know this was addressed to Lolo, and I know that what you say is true. Most of the Christians I know are not “over-the-top Christian lunatic fringe” although I think you are seriously underestimating how many nutballs are out there. However, there are many polite, nice, Christians who believe I am going to hell…some of them are even praying for me. 😃 However, they are the ones that get the most press. They are the most visible, if not the most numerous.** I have to ask, are you in college, too, like **Lolo** was until recently? That’s the only time in my life I’ve ever seen a significant number of prolesytizers in one area – while I was in college. Otherwise, where are you running into all these “polite, nice Christians who believe you are going to hell”? Are lots of strangers TELLING you that out of the blue – or are you making assumptions about what someone might believe about you? Man, I’ve lived in the Bible Belt all my life (Louisiana and Mississippi), and I’ve never run across that much judgmentalism among even the staunchest Christians. Okay, guys – I promise – unless you live in a very unusual area, once you get out of college, you will almost never run across an in-your-face fundamentalist. They really are very rare in polite society – just not rare in colleges. BTW, **Absimia** – the lunatic fringe as a whole is certainly bigger than the most vocal subset ot the lunatic fringe. But they tend to keep to themselves, so there’s no use worrying about them. ---
**Author:** ![absimia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbe5ce/32.png) [@absimia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absimia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/59 "2001-10-16T17:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by absimia \* > > **One can be open and emphatic about one’s belief (or in this instance, non-belief) without being “in-your-face” rude about it.** > > No. That cannot be evaluated objectively. Your “open & emphatic” might be someone else’s “rude” – with neither party being unreasonable or incorrect. \*\* I would agree to a point. Any statements about religion (and I mean ANY statement) is frought with explosiveness. And it would be impossible to say with certainty that one statement would be unobjectionable and yet relevant enough to say. But that is why one must establish a dialogue. If one states it in way X and it raises hackles, try way Y. One can’t be afraid of being confrontational, but one can still do it in a (for lack of a better word) loving spirit. Look at, for instance, the work various people are doing to reconcile the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox (i believe) churches. They’re trying to find commonalities, while talking about their differences. It is causing, no doubt, some serious arguments and probably miscommunications and whatnot, but their both trying to live up to their higher goals of helping the flock. (Is that a nonsequitor? It made so much sense in my head but I can’t seem to get it to come out right here. It has something to do with people not being afraid to stand up for what they believe in, being vocal about those beliefs, and yet be healing about it instead of divisive.) Religon (and hard line non-religon) are both very emotional subjects. One has to try and empathize with the person or persons. A goal that, alas, the internet is ill suited for. Of course, after all of that, one has to be willing to stop trying witness to one’s non-faith if it seems to be upsetting someone overly much. Absimia ---
**Author:** ![absimia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbe5ce/32.png) [@absimia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absimia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130/60 "2001-10-16T17:57:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > **Ok absimia, if you don’t mind I’ll ask you what I asked Lolo.** Don’t mind at all. > [@](#): > > \*\*So? Why does it matter what they think about you? Why does it amtter that they pray for you? How does it affect your life? \*\* On a day to day basis, it doesn’t affect me at all. In fact, on the instances I do think about it (like now), it makes me happy to know that some people care about me enough to think about me as they contact the BigGuy. I think I’m approaching this from a slightly different angle in that I have no problems even with the crazy (by my definition) street preachers here in Chicago. I appreciate that they care enough about me (in general) and their beliefs to want to risk stepping on peoples toes and being held up for ridicule by some. I would assume that some people do appreciate their work. I just wonder, why I shouldn’t do the same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-atheism-why-so-aggressive/87130.md?page=4)