# Hard Water, Soft Water **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 27, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298 "2004-01-27T17:15:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/1 "2004-01-27T17:15:06Z")
In this report: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhardwater.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhardwater.html) , Una talks about the differences between hard and soft water. But I have a related question. I have an exchange bed water softener installed in my new house, but we’re not moved in yet. Someone here at work showed me a web site that touted “electronic” water softeners that work by changing the structure onf the dissolved minerals. I don’t have the URL as I told the fellow it was BS and walked away. This device is supposed to use electric fields to operate. Sounds like BS to me, but I’d appreciate any factual data one way or the other. I’ll look for the URL and post it if I can find it. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/2 "2004-01-27T17:36:49Z")
I did a search but did not find the site I was shown earlier. Bu this site: [http://www.promolife.com/products/softener.htm](http://www.promolife.com/products/softener.htm) lists an explaination of the operation of the unit they sell. “The Electronic water softener unit is composed of a signal cable that is wrapped several times around the pipe and an electronic unit that sends out a complex, dynamic current to produce extremely small, time-varying oscillating fields inside the pipe. The current that produces a oscillating field is known as Ampere’s Law. Electronic water softeners signal produces a unique square wave current that sweeps all the frequency responses from 1,000 - 12,000 Hz at a rate of 20 times a second. When the strength of the oscillating field varies with time and changes direction, an induced current is produced inside the pipe, a phenomenon known as Faraday’s Law of Induction. As the induced electric field oscillates, all particles which have an electrical charge are affected by the induced field. This causes the unstable mineral ions to precipitate or collide with each other to the point where the calcium carbonate crystals grow until they become so large that there are no more surface charges left to stick to the pipe walls. These calcium molecules precipitate into an aragonite form and flow through the system. As a byproduct of this “snowball” effect, freed water molecules become available to remove existing scale, molecule by molecule.” ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/3 "2004-01-27T17:57:30Z")
Congrats **GaryM** , your BS detector is up to snuff. Such electric (or magnetic) systems have little or no effect on the water as the water passes by. 2 seconds later, there is absolutely no effect whatsoever. “Alignment” doesn’t do anything at any time in liquid water anyway. Just because someone is selling something today doesn’t mean they won’t get a visit from the FTC tomorrow. Search if you like for threads in GQ on such systems. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/4 "2004-01-27T18:23:14Z")
That is actually a subject that at first glance seems to be very similar to those that claim that magnets on petrol lines in automobiles (and even on natural gas lines in homes) use their wacky magnetic fields to somehow change molecular structures and improve combustion/efficiency/etc. The research in this field is very spotty and hit and miss, and most articles you find that are web-able are promotional ones. The sort that set off alarm bells in the head of the natural skeptic. The quick answer is: it is not possible for me to say with confidence they don’t work at some level, but I can say with confidence that conventional systems _do_ work. Some of the sites I found when I was looking at the questions: From: [http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html](http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html) > [@](#): > > Magnetic treatment of water is claimed to cause four effects: > > Reduction in the amount of limescale formed. > Production of a less tenacious limescale due to a change in the crystal morphology. > Removal of existing scale (3 - 6 months). > Retention of anti-scaling properties for hours following treatment. > > Many tests mainly utilizing single pass systems, however, have proved negative [212]. Recirculatory systems, with prolonged magnetic exposure, give more supportive results. Rapid movement (1200 rpm) in a strong magnetic field (4.75 T) had a significant effect compared with the movement or field alone [105]. > > (SNIP) > > A recent well-controlled study has shown that scaling can be reduced by a few percent by even one pass though a simple magnetic device but that it is difficult to increase this effect to more than about 20% even with extensive recirculation [259]. This study also showed an optimum in the flow rate as at too high a flow rate the magnetic field was encountered only briefly, an effect recently confirmed [555]. > > Ref 212: G. J. C. Limpert and J. L. Raber, Tests of nonchemical scale control devices in a once-through system, Materials Performance, 24 (1985) 40-45. > > Ref 105: R. Gehr, Z. A. Zhai, J. A. Finch and R. Rao, Reduction of soluble mineral concentrations in CaSO4 saturated water using a magnetic-field, Water Res. 29 (1995) 933-940. > > Ref 259: C. Gabrielli, R. Jaouhari, G. Maurin and M. Keddam, Magnetic water treatment for scale prevention, Wat. Res. 35 (2001) 3249-3259. > > Ref 515: Y. I. Cho, S. H. Lee and W. Kim, Physical water treatment for the mitigation of mineral fouling in cooling-tower water applications, ASHRAE Trans. 109 (2003) 346-357. Note that the 4.75T field they reference actually seems unrealistically strong to me - much higher than you could get with a home device. But I’m not an EE so I may be mistaken. The Canadian Water Quality Association has this to say: From: [http://www.cwqa.com/html/consumer2.html](http://www.cwqa.com/html/consumer2.html) > [@](#): > > The most common frauds are so-called “no-salt softeners.” Sellers of these products claim to be able to provide the benefits of soft water using catalytic bars or magnets. Another link from their site: From: [http://www.cwqa.com/html/ii\_devices.html](http://www.cwqa.com/html/ii_devices.html) > [@](#): > > CWQA knows of no generally recognized scientific or technical evidence which proves that magnetic, electromagnetic or catalytic devices sold to treat water have any measurable physical or chemical effect of water quality. And of course, my friends at CSICOP (where I should have looked first) have this to say. From: [http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html](http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html) The above article is very well-done and can answer this better than I can. That is one I highly recommend you read, Gary. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/5 "2004-01-27T18:30:16Z")
I’d better clarify one thing - I was trying to post before the Board timed out on me and didn’t spend enough time typing. When I say “The quick answer is: it is not possible for me to say with confidence they don’t work at some level” I mean “some positive effects may be present at extremely small levels and under perfect and unrealistic experimental conditions; under real-world conditions they seem, based on the evidence, to be unlikely to work”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/6 "2004-01-27T20:37:27Z")
By the way, **Una** , congratulations on being promoted to full Staff (this may have happened sometime over Christmas break, but I still haven’t caught up on my Christmas reading yet). ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/7 "2004-01-27T22:08:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By the way, **Una** , congratulations on being promoted to full Staff (this may have happened sometime over Christmas break, but I still haven’t caught up on my Christmas reading yet). Thank you, Chronos. I actually was semi-officially made Staff a while ago without any notice put up, due to me answering the “Does Fanning make you Hotter or Cooler” query in a very lengthy manner, and Ed wanting me to share it with the rest of the Staff to get comments on how to cut it down from about 10 pages of Arial 10-point and three self-made graphics to 5 paragraphs and a smilie. 😉 [sub]Still have to do that, BTW…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/8 "2004-01-28T03:41:34Z")
Thanks for the reinforcement of my initial impression. The article on CSICOP was interesting, particularly the part about the Consumer Report test. I’m running my resin bed unit with potassium chloride rather than sodium chloride. Mostly because I failed to plan for a dedicated drain for the backwash and I’ve been told that the potassium is easier on the septic system. And congratulations to you Una! ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/9 "2004-01-28T12:16:47Z")
Yes, indeed, **Una** , we’re pleased as punch to have you on board as an Official member of the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board (affectionately called “staff”, probably in memory of Moses’ similar what could call down rains of locusts and the like). ---
**Author:** ![grg88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@grg88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grg88)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/10 "2004-01-28T14:43:07Z")
There’s a BIG part missing from this otherwise pretty decent answer. There is a major difference between “soft water” and “water from a water softener”. Real soft water is water that is low in dissolved minerals. This includes rain water, which is basically naturally distilled water, which has exactly zero minerals, (but with perhaps a minuscule trace of dust in each raindrop). As the posting noted, “surface water”, which is mostly rain runoff, is also quite low in minerals. On the other hand “water from a water softener” is NOT low in minerals. Thanks to the laws of thermodynamics, you can’t remove minerals without adding considerable energy. Every water softener I’ve seen uses a no-energy ion-exchange process. Basically it swaps the mineral ions in the water with sodium ions from the slat you pour into the softener. This is a low-energy swap that happens with no net input required into the softener. Since this is a one-to-one exchange, the harder the incoming water, the more the sodium ions that end up in the “softened” water. One might suspect that a lot of the funny taste and feel of softened water is due to the presence of lots and lots of sodium ions in the water. That’s why people on ow-sodium diets are cautioned to drink unsoftened water, the softened kind is just loaded with sodium. ---
**Author:** ![OldSeaDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldSeaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldSeaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/11 "2004-01-28T15:51:32Z")
I enjoyed this article very much, since I come from an area with notorious levels of hard water. However, I noticed in the reply the following - “Water from underground aquifers – well water, for you civilians – has extended contact with soft calcium…”. I don’t understand what you mean by extended contact. Did you mean extensive, or is there some other concept I don’t understand - this wouldn’t be the only thing I don’t understand by a long shot 🙂 . ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/12 "2004-01-28T17:00:04Z")
> [@OldSeaDog](#): > > I enjoyed this article very much, since I come from an area with notorious levels of hard water. However, I noticed in the reply the following - “Water from underground aquifers – well water, for you civilians – has extended contact with soft calcium…”. I don’t understand what you mean by extended contact. Did you mean extensive, or is there some other concept I don’t understand - this wouldn’t be the only thing I don’t understand by a long shot 🙂 . Hello, OldSeaDog. When the article says “extended” it means “prolonged”, as in “has prolonged time in the aquifer”. Since slow percolation through the aquifer results more in a time-based contact than an area or physical length-based contact, I felt that was the better term to use. I checked with my American dictionary to make certain I wasn’t making a gaff (my extended contact with **Fierra** has me often speaking and writing in Bramerican) and found Webster’s 3rd College Edition supports me, in the 2nd sub-definition. The first sub-definition might also apply as well, being “stretched out; spreadout” if the reader knows I’m referring to time. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/13 "2004-01-28T22:48:45Z")
**Una** , this makes me smile. Nice job on the article and on your subsequent responses to other related questions. Keep up the good work. And congrats from me too. I didn’t know you had been promoted from guest contributor to science advisory staff member. Well deserved. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/14 "2004-01-29T14:19:24Z")
> [@grg88](#): > > There’s a BIG part missing from this otherwise pretty decent answer. > > There is a major difference between “soft water” and “water from a water softener”. > > Real soft water is water that is low in dissolved minerals. This includes rain water, which is basically naturally distilled water, which has exactly zero minerals, (but with perhaps a minuscule trace of dust in each raindrop). As the posting noted, “surface water”, which is mostly rain runoff, is also quite low in minerals. > > On the other hand “water from a water softener” is NOT low in minerals. Thanks to the laws of thermodynamics, you can’t remove minerals without adding considerable energy. Every water softener I’ve seen uses a no-energy ion-exchange process. Basically it swaps the mineral ions in the water with sodium ions from the slat you pour into the softener. This is a low-energy swap that happens with no net input required into the softener. > > Since this is a one-to-one exchange, the harder the incoming water, the more the sodium ions that end up in the “softened” water. > > One might suspect that a lot of the funny taste and feel of softened water is due to the presence of lots and lots of sodium ions in the water. > > That’s why people on ow-sodium diets are cautioned to drink unsoftened water, the softened kind is just loaded with sodium. I knew that. Maybe the term should be changed to “water that reacts with soap as though it were soft”? Naw, I guess not. Any comments on the use of potassium vs. sodium and the interaction with the septic system? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/15 "2004-01-29T15:16:03Z")
Excellent article, Una! –robby P.S. OK, I have one minor nitpick. When I started teaching chemistry, I found it creates much less confusion to use the symbol “L” for liter, as [recommended by NIST](http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/outside.html), rather than a lower-case “l” (printed or script). As NIST puts it: > [@](#): > > The liter in Table 6 deserves comment. This unit and its symbol l were adopted by the CIPM in 1879. The alternative symbol for the liter, L, was adopted by the CGPM in 1979 in order to avoid the risk of confusion between the letter l and the number 1. Thus, although both l and L are internationally accepted symbols for the liter, to avoid this risk the preferred symbol for use in the United States is L. Neither a lowercase script letter l nor an uppercase script letter L are approved symbols for the liter. ---
**Author:** ![fierra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58956e/32.png) [@fierra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fierra)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/16 "2004-01-29T19:46:25Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Any comments on the use of potassium vs. sodium and the interaction with the septic system? Gary, I don’t have any info re sodium vs potassium for a septic tank system, but I do know that potassium is a lot more expensive to use and I found this yesterday at a website for a company that sells water softeners ([http://www.kinetico.com/residntl/faq3.htm](http://www.kinetico.com/residntl/faq3.htm)) whilst looking for some other info: > [@](#): > > Is soft water bad for my septic system? > > According to a report issued by the Water Quality Research Council, water softeners do not have any detrimental effect on septic systems and may actually enhance their performance in certain situations by encouraging the growth of additional bacteria. > > In fact, the flow from the softener is typically less than the waste water discharged from an automatic washing machine. The studies credited the high levels of calcium and magnesium present (in the flow that results when the softener cleans itself) with improving soil percolation in many instances. > The studies were conducted by scientists at the University of Wisconsin - Madison and the National Sanitation Foundation. The information comes from a site that sells water softeners of the type you describe having (ie ion exchange not the magnetic field type), so should be taken with, ahem, a pinch of salt ;), until you find a copy of the actual report from the Water Quality Research Council, since it’s in their interests to convince people to use them. There’s a bit of info about the WQRC (now the WQRF) at the Water Quality Association’s site - [http://www.wqa.org/](http://www.wqa.org/) - they’re a trade association for the water treatment industry, according to their website & the WQRF is an independent research body. Of course, the study from that tiny snippet seems to be concerned only with what the extra calcium/magnesium levels are doing from the outflow during the regeneration phase. I don’t know if the main body of the report discusses the effects of higher levels of sodium or potassium in the general waste water being discharged into the septic tank, but it may be useful to you. There’s a nice article about how ion-exchange water softeners work here, btw: [http://www.popularmechanics.com/home\_improvement/how\_it\_works/1998/8/water\_softeners/index2.phtml](http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/how_it_works/1998/8/water_softeners/index2.phtml) for anyone wanting more information. ---
**Author:** ![kjkolb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ec8ea/32.png) [@kjkolb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kjkolb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/17 "2005-05-29T21:03:41Z")
[http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/](http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/) This article supporting magentic water treatment for industrial uses is supposedly from the Department of Energy, PNL specifically. I wasn’t able to find it on PNL’s website, though. Were they fooled? ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-water-soft-water/226298/18 "2005-05-30T00:44:43Z")
When I worked in dialysis, we had to use large amounts of water equal to distilled. In the begining we used resin bed exchangers. Very impractical and expensive for household use. Later we switched to [Reverse Osmosis](http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1047w.htm), which is really facilitated diffusion. It is a similar concept to dialysis, in that water is forced across a membrane, leaving the minerals and (some) contaminants behind. I have had it as an add on for drinking water in my home in other parts of the country. (I don’t need it here) But I’m pretty sure whole house systems are available.