# Hard Work vs. Privilege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322 "2017-01-16T17:23:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/41 "2017-01-16T22:59:01Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > I’ll agree that being privileged is better. Can’t imagine where I’d be now, were that the case for me. > > Now try to tell me I’m not happy and successful. Why would I try to do that? Instead, why don’t you try to understand why that would be a complete non sequitur? If you can understand that, you’ll be a lot closer to understanding the concept of privilege. > [@UberArchetype](#): > > It depends on how long Bob lasts and whether or not Frank has a well-diversified connection network. Frank’s connection network is as robust within his neighborhood as Bob’s is in his. As for how long Bob lasts, neither one is in immediate danger of death, although both suffer the risks inherent to the lives they lead. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/42 "2017-01-16T23:00:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Easy. Bob is going to end up either dead or in long-term rehab because of his coke addiction. That is the greatest equalizer of all. It doesn’t matter how much money you have when you are dead because of drugs. Just ask Michael Jackson, Prince, John Belushi or countless others. Frank should probably hold off on the coke too but maybe his lack of cash is actually helping him in that regard. “A fair amount of coke” != “so much coke that he’s going to OD.” Unless you think that everyone who uses coke semiregularly ends up dead or in long-term rehab, this is also a non-sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/43 "2017-01-16T23:01:35Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > No it doesn’t. Of course there are such correlations, but history is replete with many examples of people who have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams coming from and "un"privileged background. They almost always had luck. Go read **Hillbilly Elegy** and let me know if you think that guy’s success is solely due to his hard work. > [@](#): > > So IOW, a person needs to work harder to be successful in more challenging environments. Right. So do you understand why its stupid to say that privilege plays no part in “sociability”? If being raised in the “right” culture is all you need to connect with others, then you don’t have to really work hard at it, do you? You don’t have to go out of your way to learn anything, correct? It just sorta happens for you, without any “merit” on your part. > [@monstro](#): > > It should go without saying that privilege increases the likelihood that an individual will be able to develop competencies. > [@UberArchetype](#): > > Not on this planet. You are conflating cause and effect. Neither work nor privilege excludes the ability to capitalize on opportunities. Large and small opportunities are available to everyone all the time. What is made of them depends entirely on work. So you’re saying that it doesn’t matter if you send your kid to a low-performing impoverished elementary school or an elite private school…your kid will develop the same knowledge base and skillset? Because on the planet I inhabit, not all schools are alike. On my planet, education access is tightly correlated with socioeconomic status. The whole point of privilege is that “large” and “small” opportunities are categorically different. A person who gets a scholarship to attend college has a different kind of opportunity than a person who gets handed the keys to the family’s multinational corporation right after graduation. It is preposterous to say that both of these individuals have the same potentiality in life. > [@](#): > > That sounds like a great idea for a sitcom - and just a preposterous. How do you know what Bill Gates is capable of? If Bill Gates’ story isn’t all special, why aren’t there more of him? Do you think Bill Gates grew up in the projects, raising his younger siblings, dodging drug dealers on his way to a mediocre school? Or do you think he grew up in privilege, because only a privileged person could spend as many hours as he did teaching himself programming and launching his own business at such a young age? > [@monstro](#): > > Privilege also makes it so that you don’t have to know quite as much or be as sociable as someone without privilege. > [@UberArchetype](#): > > Sounds like either a privileged failure or a jealous slacker. Either way, you got it wrong. We’re in GD, where cites should really be provided to support your assertions. Do you have a cite that demonstrates how “wrong” I am? Or do you need someone to walk you over to IMHO, where you can bloviate as much as you want? ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/44 "2017-01-16T23:16:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you can understand that, you’ll be a lot closer to understanding the concept of privilege. Privilege is a “word” that is being obfuscated into some sort of socio-economic complaint by people in this thread to assuage their feelings about not having enough money (ECONOMIC privilege). I hear that. I’d like more money too. Hell, even the rich and greedy want more money. It’s nobody’s fault, maybe not even your own, if you don’t have enough money. It’s also regrettable that so few have so much. Sorry about that. Why do you believe your lack of economic privilege is any more or less important than some rich guy’s situation? ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/45 "2017-01-16T23:17:50Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We’re in GD, where cites should really be provided to support your assertions. Do you have a cite that demonstrates how “wrong” I am? Or do you need someone to walk you over to IMHO, where you can bloviate as much as you want? Do me a favor and post up jpeg’s of your bank statements. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/46 "2017-01-16T23:28:13Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > Any sober explanations of privilege as it relates to hard work and results in our society would be appreciated. Thanks in advance 🙂 They are completely un-related. Your post is click-bait for the economically disadvantaged (as opposed to “the privileged.”) There are hard workers and slackers in every echelon of society. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/47 "2017-01-16T23:30:10Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Do me a favor and post up jpeg’s of your bank statements. wut ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/48 "2017-01-17T00:12:19Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Privilege is a “word” that is being obfuscated into some sort of socio-economic complaint by people in this thread to assuage their feelings about not having enough money (ECONOMIC privilege). I hear that. I’d like more money too. Hell, even the rich and greedy want more money. It’s nobody’s fault, maybe not even your own, if you don’t have enough money. It’s also regrettable that so few have so much. Sorry about that. > > Why do you believe your lack of economic privilege is any more or less important than some rich guy’s situation? At the point where you’re putting “word” in irony quotes and asking incoherent questions about why I believe things that I’ve never claimed to believe, I don’t see where this conversation has room to grow. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/49 "2017-01-17T00:26:48Z")
It’s a bit of both, I think. Privilege makes hard work go further. I think most millionaires work hard, but it’s easier to become a millionaire if you’re born into the middle class compared to being born in the ghetto, even if you never received any inheritance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/50 "2017-01-17T00:30:28Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Privilege is a “word” that is being obfuscated into some sort of socio-economic complaint by people in this thread to assuage their feelings about not having enough money (ECONOMIC privilege). I hear that. I’d like more money too. Hell, even the rich and greedy want more money. It’s nobody’s fault, maybe not even your own, if you don’t have enough money. It’s also regrettable that so few have so much. Sorry about that. > > Why do you believe your lack of economic privilege is any more or less important than some rich guy’s situation? That’s not how I see privilege being used in this thread. To put it relatively simply, it’s a way to talk about the millions of little difficulties that some people face routinely due to characteristics like race, gender, and the like. Some of those difficulties can make it harder to succeed in education, finding a job, succeeding in a job, buying a house, avoiding random violence, and many other things that can strongly affect one’s chances at a decent life. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/51 "2017-01-17T01:45:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > “Behind every great fortune, there is a great crime” - Balzac > Or at the very least, IMO, some great injustice, in the cosmic sense of the word. This guy with that idea met the right people, at the right time, with the right human rapport. The others didn’t. This guy’s PR campaign worked, that guy’s didn’t despite harping on the very same strings. It’s all chaos, and luck, and happenstance. That guy managed to convince his banker, this guy didn’t. > > Hard work my arse. Everybody works hard. Even the burger flipper. And, yes, some folks play chance on easy mode to be sure. Everybody does not work hard. That’s ludicrous. However, so-called privilege and hard work being two variables with regards to outcome is surprisingly nuanced. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/52 "2017-01-17T01:48:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So, we have two individuals. > > Bob is the son of a founder of a major corporation. He’s socialized to hobnob with the wealthy. He does a fair amount of coke, never really takes his schooling seriously, has a giant trust fund. > > Frank is the son of a minimum wage worker of the same major corporation. He’s socialized to survive in a neighborhood run by one of the guys that deals to Bob. He takes his schooling seriously, but also must work a job after school in order to help his family pay bills. He does some coke, but not nearly as much as Bob. > > By what measure do you think that Frank’s relatively harder work is going to lead to a more comfortable life? Of course family matters. We are biological entities and the product of over a billion years of evolution. Why shouldn’t more successful families exploit that success? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/53 "2017-01-17T01:57:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Of course family matters. We are biological entities and the product of over a billion years of evolution. Why shouldn’t more successful families exploit that success? In mild degree, it’s fine. Maybe even something that should be encouraged, because it gives the poors something to model themselves after. “Middle class values” and all that. But in excess it leads to [unstable societies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict). We don’t exist as just individuals or just family units. We also exist as communities, as societies. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/54 "2017-01-17T02:35:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Of course family matters. We are biological entities and the product of over a billion years of evolution. Why shouldn’t more successful families exploit that success? How is that responsive? Are you saying that privilege exists based on the luck of birth, but that it’s a good thing in all cases? Or are you saying something else? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/55 "2017-01-17T03:08:24Z")
It depends where in the world we’re talking about. _Social mobility_; that is, how well parents’ relative income is a predictive factor of their children’s income varies by country. In the United States, there is a [very high correlation](http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/) between parents’ and children’s income (I note though that my home country of the UK is even worse in this regard). Answering the question in the abstract, I would lean towards privilege as being important, especially if privilege includes parents who instill particular values (so not just money and a quality education). Hard work is just a given. Most of us have to bust our ass in the modern economy, not just in the office but often with outside learning too. Knowing how to _direct_ ones effort effectively, and knowing what it takes to convert an aspiration into a reality are the things that make a difference between someone getting by vs being successful in this world. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/56 "2017-01-17T03:56:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > However, so-called privilege and hard work being two variables with regards to outcome is surprisingly nuanced. 😕 What is “so-called” about privilege? Is it at all in dispute that some people are more privileged than others owing to having more advantageous unearned circumstances, including being born into more socially favored groups? I don’t think anyone here is trying to claim that privilege is automatically more important than hard work, but it’s absurd to try to suggest that the existence of privilege isn’t a real thing. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/57 "2017-01-17T06:51:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How is that responsive? Are you saying that privilege exists based on the luck of birth, but that it’s a good thing in all cases? Or are you saying something else? I’m saying that privilege isn’t accidental in many cases. It’s deliberate and in many cases just. Why shouldn’t my children have advantages that come from my wife’s and my own sacrifices and hard work? We are all competing in a biological sense why shouldn’t I work to maximize my children’s ability to be successful in all aspects of life? I grew up very poor and through my own behavior, environmental support such as public schools with good teachers, and intrinsic ability I’m now very comfortable. I don’t begrudge the fact that Bill Gates’s next 10 generations doesn’t have to work if he doesn’t want them to. That has ~0 impact on my life. And I don’t buy into the forces of religion, nationalism, or other forms of societal manipulation at the expense of my own family. TLDR version, focusing on the individual while ignoring what a family has earned misses a very significant point. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/58 "2017-01-17T07:14:54Z")
…I didn’t really understand privilege until I read this comic by New Zealand artist Toby Morris. [On a Plate.](http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/59 "2017-01-17T08:06:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t begrudge the fact that Bill Gates’s next 10 generations doesn’t have to work if he doesn’t want them to. That has ~0 impact on my life. > > And I don’t buy into the forces of religion, nationalism, or other forms of societal manipulation at the expense of my own family. > > TLDR version, focusing on the individual while ignoring what a family has earned misses a very significant point. No-one is begrudging parents helping their children. What we’re talking about is making it easier for those from poor backgrounds to make something of their life. Making sure that as many people as possible get the great teaching that you received. None of this involves trying to pull back kids from wealthy families. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/60 "2017-01-17T08:17:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Why shouldn’t my children have advantages that come from my wife’s and my own sacrifices and hard work? Nobody’s saying your children shouldn’t have those advantages that you work so hard to give them. The point is that as far as your children themselves are concerned, those advantages are unearned. Your children as individuals did not do any more to deserve those benefits than billions of less fortunate children did. They merely happened to be lucky enough to be born into your family. It’s natural for parents to see children in many ways as extensions of themselves, but other people are more likely to see them as separate individuals. Nobody’s suggesting that you shouldn’t use your wealth to benefit your children, but there’s no meaningful sense in which your children can be said to have personally “earned” those advantages just by happening to be your children. [QUOTE=octopus] I grew up very poor and through my own behavior, environmental support such as public schools with good teachers, and intrinsic ability I’m now very comfortable. [/quote] Being white, male, straight and a native English speaker in the wealthiest nation in the world helped too. That’s not in any way disparaging your own achievements; that’s just pointing out that while you were disadvantaged in some ways, e.g., financially, you were also advantaged in others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322.md?page=4)