# Hard Work vs. Privilege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322 "2017-01-16T17:23:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/61 "2017-01-17T09:46:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I didn’t really understand privilege until I read this comic by New Zealand artist Toby Morris. > > [On a Plate.](http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate) What that comic doesn’t mention is that while Richard got the opportunities, he still had to follow through and do the work. A child doesn’t get an A grade just by having a tutor; the child has to learn the subject and do the work. BTW most American [millionaires](http://www.fa-mag.com/news/most-millionaires-self-made--study-says-14565.html) and [billionaires](https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269593) are self-made ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/62 "2017-01-17T11:13:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > What that comic doesn’t mention is that while Richard got the opportunities, he still had to follow through and do the work. A child doesn’t get an A grade just by having a tutor; the child has to learn the subject and do the work. > > BTW most American [millionaires](http://www.fa-mag.com/news/most-millionaires-self-made--study-says-14565.html) and [billionaires](https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269593) are self-made However there is a strong correlation, particularly in the US, between parents’ incomes and those of their children. This may be acceptable at the top end, but is rather unfortunate at the bottom, where we would like to see hard work and talented individuals finding the opportunities they need to succeed. Clearly the US is not doing as much as other countries to foster such a meritocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/63 "2017-01-17T11:21:57Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > However there is a strong correlation, particularly in the US, between parents’ incomes and those of their children. What are the statistics of the children doing ‘the same _or better_’? That, I would suggest, is a better metric. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/64 "2017-01-17T11:25:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > What that comic doesn’t mention is that while Richard got the opportunities, he still had to follow through and do the work. A child doesn’t get an A grade just by having a tutor; the child has to learn the subject and do the work. I don’t quite see how it ignores that. You can clearly see him studying, see him at work, see him putting in effort. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/65 "2017-01-17T11:29:27Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > What are the statistics of the children doing ‘the same _or better_’? That, I would suggest, is a better metric. I would disagree. There is no reason to lump the set of people doing about the same with the set of people doing significantly better, other than to obfuscate the issue. It’s throwing away data. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/66 "2017-01-17T11:42:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > What that comic doesn’t mention is that while Richard got the opportunities, he still had to follow through and do the work. A child doesn’t get an A grade just by having a tutor; the child has to learn the subject and do the work. …well duh. You missed the point. Both Richard and Paula got B+'s. But Paula’s journey to that B+ was much harder, had more obstacles, and was more than acceptable to her parents. Richard’s road to the same grade wa easier: and when he got there he was told to do better and this is what we are going to do to help. This is what privilege is. Of course Richard has to put the work in. They show him putting the work in. But Paula has to work just that little bit harder to get the same result. Privilege is not a value judgement. I’m Samoan/Maori. In many cases I am more privileged than others. That doesn’t upset me. I acknowledge this: and I’m working to change that. I can only suggest that you read the comic again. > [@](#): > > BTW most American [millionaires](http://www.fa-mag.com/news/most-millionaires-self-made--study-says-14565.html) and [billionaires](https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269593) are self-made [And most American millionaires are White or Asian.](http://time.com/money/4188446/race-factor-wealth-college-degree/) I’m pretty sure you were trying to make a point with that factoid. But I don’t have a clue what it was. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/67 "2017-01-17T11:46:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There is no reason to lump the set of people doing about the same with the set of people doing significantly better, other than to obfuscate the issue. It’s throwing away data. Because I’m looking at the general improvement of society. Perhaps I should have phrased that as ‘people not slipping down’, but I preferred the optimistic phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/68 "2017-01-17T11:48:28Z")
Self-made \<\> started off in poverty ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/69 "2017-01-17T12:41:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Because I’m looking at the general improvement of society. Perhaps I should have phrased that as ‘people not slipping down’, but I preferred the optimistic phrasing. Well I still disagree that such a data point would be useful. And I already posted a useful data point that you haven’t commented on: social mobility, by country. In the US it’s quite low. Any opinion on that? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/70 "2017-01-17T12:46:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Self-made \<\> started off in poverty Exactly. All that survey shows is that the majority of millionaires didn’t merely inherit their millions. It doesn’t address whether they were given a single paltry $1 million gift to start their business, whether they were sent to the most expensive schools, whether their dads convinced a golfing buddy to hire them on at a prestigious law firm, and so on. It has very little to do with this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/71 "2017-01-17T13:08:22Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The more relevant question is how should society be organized in order to encourage hard work? Should we? I’d rather get good results. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/72 "2017-01-17T13:46:30Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Should we? I’d rather get good results. How awfully un-germanic of you. Wörk, wörk, wörk you shall! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/73 "2017-01-17T14:04:52Z")
As for millionaires/billionaires in the US: 21% of children in the US live in poverty. 42% live in poverty or low-income families. The relevant stat for this debate would be the percentage of millionaires and billionaires who grew up in poverty. If hard work, not circumstances, determine success, you’d expect that percentage to be around 21%. I’ll be astonished if it’s above 5%. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/74 "2017-01-17T14:55:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I didn’t really understand privilege until I read this comic by New Zealand artist Toby Morris. Now you understand just 1 of the myriad possible outcomes of a specific storyboard that assumes a worst-case scenario. Do you feel smarter now? ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/75 "2017-01-17T14:55:41Z")
Thanks for all the awesome responses everybody. I’ve seen a lot more nuanced views on the subject in this thread than I had in some of the pieces I ran across online, which is cool. The gist I am getting is that privilege can make failing more difficult (need to lose much more money at once to be in dire straights), succeeding easier (need less work to attain the same results), and can make overall quality of life better when compared to a less privileged person of approximately the same socioeconomic status. Sorry to boil down the many great replies so simply, but I unfortunately do not have the time to address them directly. My next question is what do we do about it? I mean this question in a couple of ways. First, what is the point in confronting someone about their privilege? What is the confronter trying to get out of the confrontation (this will of course vary by individual)? Second, what do we do as a society to address differences in privilege? Surely we cannot just make privilege disappear, right? Hyperbolically, I can’t stop being white, nor can a gay person magically stop being gay. We can’t make people stop having unconscious biases against certain characteristics, though we can try to make them more aware of it so that they can perhaps not act on it. Mental training is quite difficult, though. I doubt many if any people want a Harrison Bergeron style leveling of the playing field. So what do people who are concerned about privilege want themselves and others to do? ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/76 "2017-01-17T15:29:01Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > My next question is what do we do about it? Saw that coming up 6th Ave. > [@HumbleThinker](#): > > I mean this question in a couple of ways. First, what is the point in confronting someone about their privilege? "un"privileged people often feel resentful about their perceived economic inequality. They feel better after a little whining. > [@HumbleThinker](#): > > Second, what do we do as a society to address differences in privilege? Surely we cannot just make privilege disappear, right? Why would you want to do that? Surely the privileged would then be the resentful ones. Or maybe a society full of identical drones with all the same trappings and all the same beliefs, values and mores is appealing to you? > [@HumbleThinker](#): > > So what do people who are concerned about privilege want themselves and others to do? The only people concerned about privilege in this context are the ones who want something handed to them for for free. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/77 "2017-01-17T15:37:38Z")
Just to put things in perspective here on the cusp of Trumpomania 2017… Prices are going up, interest rates are going up and good jobs are getting scarcer. If you’re privileged, it’s time to circle the wagons. If not, better get your arse to work. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/78 "2017-01-17T15:40:25Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well I still disagree that such a data point would be useful. We’re going to have to agree to disagree; it’s a matter of perspective. You’re a pessimist; I’m an optimist. > [@](#): > > And I already posted a useful data point that you haven’t commented on: social mobility, by country. > In the US it’s quite low. Any opinion on that? Actually, the graph shows that the US, at 0.45, is in the top 5 for social mobility. Or must the US (rah! rah! USA! USA!) always be number one? Do note that the top two, Slovenia and Chile, have relatively recently freed themselves from communist and fascist dictatorships respectively, so social mobility is to be expected. As I said above, you’re a pessimist; I’m an optimist. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/79 "2017-01-17T15:55:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > We’re going to have to agree to disagree; it’s a matter of perspective. You’re a pessimist; I’m an optimist. Huh? Me saying that a number comparing children who earn \>= their parents is largely pointless, compared to something useful like social mobility (because greater than or equal to makes no distinction between…greater than, or equal to) makes me a pessimist…how? And of course you’ve provided no such cite anyway. > [@](#): > > Actually, the graph shows that the US, at 0.45, is in the top 5 for social mobility. Or must the US (rah! rah! USA! USA!) always be number one? Do note that the top two, Slovenia and Chile, have relatively recently freed themselves from communist and fascist dictatorships respectively, so social mobility is to be expected. You’ve made two errors. The first is that the US’ value is 0.4 **7** The second is that higher values indicate _lower_ social mobility. So the US is in the _bottom five_ of that sample of countries. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322/80 "2017-01-17T16:32:09Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > The only people concerned about privilege in this context are the ones who want something handed to them for for free. Let’s not forget the relatively tiny group of deceptive politicians who leverage this perception difficulty for their own election purposes by promising to give it to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hard-work-vs-privilege/777322.md?page=5)