# Hare and Hounds challenge **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 6, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352 "2011-02-06T02:24:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/1 "2011-02-06T02:24:14Z")
There’s a [bit of a dispute in GQ](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=594999) about whether either side can guarantee a win in [Hare and Hounds](http://www.mazeworks.com/hounds/index.htm). Maybe that’ll eventually end up in GD; but in the meantime, I declare for the Hounds and am prepared to challenge all comers! First responder gets to be my first victim! Here’s an opening board. I’m using D (Dog) for the Hounds and R (rabbit) for the Hare–makes it a bit easier to see in text: ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ D-O-O-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` Make sure to use ```auto tags when you copy the board to a response ... Hounds move first, so I'll post the first move as a response. ``` ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/2 "2011-02-06T02:27:40Z")
First move for the Hounds: ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-D-O-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/3 "2011-02-06T02:32:58Z")
It’s much easier to just play the Java version, but sheeeet, I’ve got nothing better to do so I’ll play :). ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-D-O-R-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/4 "2011-02-06T02:36:13Z")
Awesome! ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-R-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/5 "2011-02-06T02:38:44Z")
```auto D-O-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` BTW for anyone not familiar, the rules are: > [@](#): > > The hounds may only move vertically or forward (to the right), not backward. The hare may move in any direction. To move a piece, drag and drop it with the mouse. > > There are no captures. The hounds win by trapping the hare so that he is unable to move. The hare can win two ways. He can escape, which he does by moving past (to the left of) all three hounds. Also, if the hounds move 10 times in a row without advancing (i.e. they only move up and down) then the hounds are stalling and the hare wins. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/6 "2011-02-06T02:42:12Z")
'Course, the drag-and-drop thing doesn’t work, since we’re playing in ASCII text … ```auto D-O-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/7 "2011-02-06T02:45:18Z")
```auto d-o-o /|\|/|\ o-o-d-r-o \|/|\|/ o-d-o ``` ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/8 "2011-02-06T02:47:14Z")
For some reason, if you don’t put any text in the response, VBulletin changes all your letters in the code tag to lower case. I found this on preview … ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-R-O \|/|\|/ O-O-D ``` ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/9 "2011-02-06T02:51:06Z")
Yeah, it’s doing that “SDMB no all-caps thing.” Anyway: ```auto D-O-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-O-D ``` ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/10 "2011-02-06T02:53:13Z")
That’s OK, it makes the thread less boring if we post things other than moves … So, how’s your weather there? ```auto O-D-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-O-D ``` ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/11 "2011-02-06T02:55:25Z")
Was misty all day. I hate that shit. Would rather it just either rain or not rain. Shit I made a bad move back in post #7. I’m screwed. ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-R-O \|/|\|/ O-O-D ``` ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/12 "2011-02-06T02:59:14Z")
Yep. Game finishes: ```auto O-O-D /|\|/|\ O-O-D-R-O \|/|\|/ O-O-D O-O-D /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ O-O-D O-O-D /|\|/|\ O-O-O-D-R \|/|\|/ O-O-D ``` We can roll it back though! (Rather than start over …) So, here’s the board from before that move: ```auto D-O-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/13 "2011-02-06T03:06:34Z")
You know what? You changed my mind about this game. For some reason the Java version of the game always moves the left-most hound down from here ```auto D-O-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` rather than forward, which is a tactical mistake leading the hounds’ defeat. The hounds _can_ force a win every time! ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/14 "2011-02-06T03:10:45Z")
Woot! Now, can we actually _prove_ that? **septimus** ’s program isn’t transparent enough, I don’t think, to provide more than empirical demonstrations … ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/15 "2011-02-06T03:21:26Z")
Actually, after looking at it again, I see where I made my mistake. It was allowing you to get the board to this point in #8: ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-R-O \|/|\|/ O-O-D ``` If we were to start from scratch I can force a draw. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/16 "2011-02-06T03:33:44Z")
To save us some trouble (and some fun :() the ideally played game will play out like this: ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ D-O-O-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-D-O-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-D-O-R-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-R-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto O-D-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` ```auto O-O-D /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` ```auto O-O-D /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-D-R ``` at which point only the forward hound is in play because the hound in the center hexagon cannot move because doing so will allow an outright win for the hare, so only the top hound can move, and it’s only move is down because moving forward traps it on the far right (because hounds can only move vertically or to the right), from which point we end up with: ```auto O-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-D-O \|/|\|/ O-D-R ``` leaving hare’s only move as back to the far right yielding: ```auto O-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-D-R \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` from which hare can force the draw. Did that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/17 "2011-02-06T03:46:43Z")
Sorry I fucked that up. There’s a couple of moves missing. The ideal game would play out like: ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ D-O-O-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-D-O-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-D-O-R-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-R-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ D-O-R ``` ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-D-R ``` ```auto O-D-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` ```auto O-O-D /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-R \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` ```auto O-O-D /|\|/|\ O-O-D-O-O \|/|\|/ O-D-R ``` at which point only the forward hound is in play because the hound in the center hexagon cannot move because doing so will allow an outright win for the hare, so only the top hound can move, and it’s only move is down because moving forward traps it on the far right (because hounds can only move vertically or to the right), from which point we end up with: ```auto O-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-D-O \|/|\|/ O-D-R ``` leaving hare’s only move as back to the far right yielding: ```auto O-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-D-R \|/|\|/ O-D-O ``` from which hare can force the draw. Did _that_ make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Snifit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@Snifit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snifit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/18 "2011-02-06T07:18:38Z")
**DCnDC** , I must respectfully disagree and throw my lot in with the hounds. Care to play it out? I’ll follow the opening laid out in your last post up to the sixth move, where I will deviate as such: ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-O-D-R \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` Your move. ---
**Author:** ![Snifit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@Snifit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snifit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/19 "2011-02-06T07:25:22Z")
Actually, since you don’t have a choice in the hare’s next move (due to symmetry), I’ll go ahead and advance the game a little more, if you don’t mind. ```auto D-O-R /|\|/|\ O-O-O-D-O \|/|\|/ D-O-O ``` ```auto D-O-R /|\|/|\ O-O-D-D-O \|/|\|/ O-O-O ``` Your move. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352/20 "2011-02-06T13:26:09Z")
> [@Snifit](#): > > ```auto > > D-O-R > /|\|/|\ > O-O-D-D-O > \|/|\|/ > O-O-O > > ``` > > Your move. I’m not **DCnDC** , but rabbit to left loses immediately, so ```auto D-O-O /|\|/|\ O-O-D-D-R \|/|\|/ O-O-O ``` [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hare-and-hounds-challenge/570352.md?page=2)