# Hari Seldon's warning in the Biden XO transgender sports thread **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134 "2021-01-21T20:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/62 "2021-01-22T18:40:06Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Aside from the utterly gratuitous slur on women’s sports, **that only added to my irritation to the OP.** **Hari** , no intention to pick a fight, but moderation shouldn’t be based off of your _personal irritation_ or the lack thereof. It should be based off of whether someone has broken the rules. Whether someone has the “right” political views, or contradicts a mod’s personal viewpoint on an issue, shouldn’t come into the equation. Every moderator has personal political bias; that’s totally normal. But in a lot of your moderation warnings/notes, you seem to have more of a tendency to let your personal partisan views influence your modding than most other admins. The two things ought to be kept separate, like church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/63 "2021-01-22T19:04:58Z")
This matter is under discussion by SDMB staff. We’ll post something by and by. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/64 "2021-01-22T19:25:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > > > Aside from the utterly gratuitous slur on women’s sports, **that only added to my irritation to the OP.** > > **Hari** , no intention to pick a fight, but moderation shouldn’t be based off of your _personal irritation_ or the lack thereof. If that’s the case, you are going about it in a very bad way. You’ve just quoted part of what he said and treated as if it was the entirety of the post. You’ve ignored the rest of the post, which makes it clear that he didn’t Warn based on his personal irritation, but based on her actions. He laid out an argument for why she was not arguing in good faith. Rather than rebut his argument, you’ve decided to take one portion of his post out of context, ignoring the rest of the post. So you are effectively rebutting a stawman–a position no one actually took. Now granted, this happens sometimes even when people are arguing in good faith. People misunderstand things, or people get heated. But DemonTree has a long history of this sort of argument. And that history is exactly why I side with the moderation here. She has a pattern of behavior that shows this wasn’t some accident. She argued something that her source did not say. She refused to explain why she thought it said something it didn’t say. She didn’t provide a cite to any source that agreed with her interpretation. And then she started accusing people of not caring about women’s sports at all, trying to negate the counterarguments against her position by bringing up an emotional strawman. It’s just not how people act when they’re arguing in good faith. The Warning here is a good wakeup call that DemonTree needs to stop arguing in her typical disingenuous manner. She needs to stop throwing around emotionally loaded language, accusing her opponents of not caring about women simply because they don’t agree with her positions. You know, we used to discuss this topic every once and a while on the SDMB, without all of the problems. We respectfully discussed the issue of trans athletics. It’s not like it can’t be done. It was only when two posters, YWTF and DemonTree, came in that things got so acrimonious. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/65 "2021-01-22T19:32:21Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I believe this would not be happening if it affected men’s sports. Where do you get the notion that this EO isn’t affecting men’s sports? The EO forbids banning transgender male athletes from men’s sports on the basis of their transgender identity, just as it forbids banning transgender female athletes from women’s sports on the basis of their transgender identity. Maybe you just meant that transgender female athletes are more likely to have a physical advantage over their cisgender competitors than transgender male athletes are, and that you don’t think a ruling that might disadvantage cisgender male athletes would be tolerated? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/66 "2021-01-22T19:33:01Z")
I dont think Moderators warn people for controversial opinions. But posters REPORT more opinions that they disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/67 "2021-01-22T19:38:59Z")
“Cis” is problematic, and let us not get into a terminology issue. > **[John Boyne: Why I support trans rights but reject the word ‘cis’](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/john-boyne-why-i-support-trans-rights-but-reject-the-word-cis-1.3843005)** > > On social media you’re either an ally or an antagonist. But life is rarely so binary [https://medium.com/@XanJ/is-cis-offensive-f759b530fbe6](https://medium.com/@XanJ/is-cis-offensive-f759b530fbe6) Even the most “woke” can screw up with the constantly changing pronoun and terminology changes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/68 "2021-01-22T19:40:00Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > But the way the OP presented is, IMHO, trolling. I think that is more likely than not. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/69 "2021-01-22T20:02:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You know, we used to discuss this topic every once and a while on the SDMB, without all of the problems. We respectfully discussed the issue of trans athletics. It’s not like it can’t be done. It was only when two posters, YWTF and DemonTree, came in that things got so acrimonious. Yup. The problem, as I see it, has been the introduction of this strain of anti-transgender ressentiment politics that uses women’s rights as a smokescreen for attacks on trans rights. This has led, in particular, to an anti-transgender minority of cisgender women claiming to speak for all women, ignoring the fact that the cisgender women who disagree with them have just as much claim to represent women as they do. Even in DemonTree’s own threads there are plenty of other posters, of various gender identities, discussing reasonably and civilly the issues of differences between transgender and cisgender people and the fairest ways to accommodate them in accordance with nondiscrimination principles. But we can have that kind of constructive discussion because we’re not just using the topics as an excuse to dogwhistle the message “transgender women aren’t women”. Whenever DemonTree pops back up with her dogwhistling, the discussion gets derailed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/70 "2021-01-22T20:43:15Z")
Hear, hear. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/71 "2021-01-22T20:44:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Hear, hear Although it looks like TPTB disagree and we may soon go back to allowing trolls to ride roughshod over the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/72 "2021-01-22T20:45:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The original poster of that thread was misled by a hateful and bigoted op-ed piece You say this as if the OP was waylaid in a back alley by an opinion piece running a three-card monte table. As opposed to what no doubt actually happened - the OP went looking for that shit to prop up their continuing anti-trans agenda. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/73 "2021-01-22T20:48:30Z")
I was more hoping what was meant was that the mods were discussing shutting down transphobia disguised as JAQing… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/74 "2021-01-22T20:49:24Z")
I hope you are right, but I am not optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/75 "2021-01-22T20:49:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Maybe you just meant that transgender female athletes are more likely to have a physical advantage over their cisgender competitors than transgender male athletes are, and that you don’t think a ruling that might disadvantage cisgender male athletes would be tolerated? Yes, that’s exactly what I mean. And I think if it did disadvantage cis male athletes, they wouldn’t tolerate it, and they wouldn’t be expected to, because of societal gender roles. Women are expected to be nice and agreeable, and encouraged to put other people first, and are socially punished for not filling that role. So it’s much harder for women to protest in the first place, and to get listened to, when something disadvantages them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/76 "2021-01-22T21:31:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Cis” is problematic, and let us not get into a terminology issue. This is peak misuse of “and” as a conjunction. “Cis” really isn’t problematic. Please don’t turn this into a terminology issue. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/77 "2021-01-22T21:41:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Cis” is problematic, and let us not get into a terminology issue. > … > Even the most “woke” can screw up with the constantly changing pronoun and terminology changes. I saw this post and thought, not surprising, you were able to find two people who don’t like the term. Then I read the links (did you, beyond the headlines?). One of the authors actually says they are fine with the term, but are worried about some unnamed people who might not be. The other author doesn’t like to be called a “cis man” because he’s just a plain man, damn it. I guess descriptors are only for people who aren’t normal, as he defines it. So congrats. You found one bigot who doesn’t like “cis”. ---
**Author:** ![MustangSal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mustangsal/32/6327_2.png) [@MustangSal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MustangSal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/78 "2021-01-22T21:44:27Z")
A rather innocuous post got me a warning for not obeying a mod note. The thread has had numerous posts not adhering to a mod note. This thread is probably the worst example of poor moderation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/79 "2021-01-22T21:50:16Z")
FWIW, I was fine with Hari’s warning of DemonTree–she’s engaged in one too many rides on this loathsome hobby horse–but thought Sal’s was overly harsh. What Exit wanted to keep the thread laser-focused, but that focus wasn’t crystal-clear to everyone. A warning to Sal for discussing the issue that prompted the EO, instead of the EO itself, seemed to me like overkill. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/80 "2021-01-22T21:58:23Z")
Partly a matter of timing. Ignoring the modnote that soon after I made the second one was the major reason for the warning. I said I would have to give out warnings and probably eject the poster from the thread, **MustangSal** earned it. ---
**Author:** ![MustangSal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mustangsal/32/6327_2.png) [@MustangSal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MustangSal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134/81 "2021-01-22T22:03:43Z")
Yet violations of the mod note go on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hari-seldons-warning-in-the-biden-xo-transgender-sports-thread/931134.md?page=5)