# Harlan Ellison, skewered at last.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [May 23, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148 "2003-05-23T23:48:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/1 "2003-05-23T23:48:08Z")
I realize that [this article](http://www.tcj.com/2_archives/e_groth0189.html) is old (1989,) but it’s new to me, and besides, now it’s on the web.
It’s a scathing critique of an article Ellison wrote for _Playboy_ on comic books, but an author who has clearly had just about enough of Ellison’s crap. About 90% of the way through the article, I thought to myself, “You know something? This guy has successfully articulated a lot of the things that really bother me about Ellison.” Then, when I finished the article, I thought “okay- _now_ he’s articulated _everything_ about Ellision that ticks me off.”
A few thoughts:
1.) Ellison’s attitude towards _The Comics Journal_ is remarkably like his attitude towards _Star Trek._ I remember the intros he wrote to the Dr. Who novels that were released in the U.S. He made a big point of saying that Star Trek was utter shit (specifically, it will “turn your brains into a puree of bat guano,”) compared to the brilliance of Dr. Who. And yet… if Star Trek is so bad, why did he write for it? Poor, poor Harlan. Unable to pay the bills, he must slave away on the lowest rung of the writing ladder: Star Trek. One step above the porno paperback industry, he must labor aside other wretched, hopeless souls like Robert Bloch and David Gerrold who are unable to find any redeeming work. The reality of the matter, of course, is that Ellison thought Trek was great- until he had a personal falling-out with Roddenberry. Then he did the same thing to TCJ- he gave it his highest praise (particularly Ellisonian praise, describing TCJ as being in the finest muckraking tradition,) but after he got involved in a personal dispute, he decided that it was no better than _the National Enquirer._
2.) I wonder what would happen if Ellison’s attitude towards TV and comics were applied to science fiction? Given his bizarre declarations that anyone using the term “sci-fi” is a drooling ignoramous who thinks that SF is all Buck Rogers stuff, how do you think he would react to someone who enthusiastically declared Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, and _ID4_ to be the best SF ever produced, just as Ellison declares _The Incredible Hulk_ and “The Banana Splits” to be works of genius?
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### Author:  [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/2 "2003-05-23T23:53:21Z")
He’s always struck me as a pompous jerkoff. But, that’s just me.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/3 "2003-05-23T23:58:55Z")
I think Ellison is a brilliant writer but he can also be insufferably condescending.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/4 "2003-05-23T23:59:53Z")
Thank God he can write so well, eh? As far as I’m concerned, the guy who wrote _The Deathbird_ pretty much has a universal pass to be as much of a jerk as he wants, short of felony assault. I mean, shit, it’s not like I have to hang out with guy in real life or anything.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/5 "2003-05-24T00:15:41Z")
Instrumental in the creation and publications of _Dangerous Visions_. If you unfamiliar with this towering acheivement, you are beneath conversation, science fiction wise. Much can be forgiven. And if you think _he’s_ an insufferable asshole, you never saw Isaac Asimov. _Lord!_
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### Author:  [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/6 "2003-05-24T00:19:20Z")
What is TCJ?
And if we’re gonna pit authors now, let’s pit Robert Heinlein (who I otherwise like) for writing the single worst sci-fi novel of all time. I’d do it, but surely nobody actually made it through all ~300 pages of that ugly, ugly crap trying to stumble through that terrible nonsense language every other page.
As for Ellison, anyone who bashes _Star Trek_ as being unintellectual…that’s just plain wrong. Trek has always used the sci-fi genre to explore contemporary issues with the freedom that advanced technologies give their plots. Sometimes they succeeded, sometimes they didn’t, but they were more intellectual than alot of other sci-fi. That goes for both classic Trek and TNG.
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### Author:  [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/7 "2003-05-24T00:23:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Miller \*
> \*\*As far as I’m concerned, the guy who wrote _The Deathbird_ pretty much has a universal pass to be as much of a jerk as he wants, short of felony assault. \*\*
Geez, and here I was saying pretty much the same thing about Richard Wagner over in Cafe Society.
**Luci** : I know Ellison (edited one of his books), and I had a passing acquaintance with Asimov while he still trod this earth. I _know_ Harl is an insufferable asshole, but I always thought Isaac had a certain self-mocking thing going that diffused the IA quotient. Was I wrong?
[sub](Actually, neither of these guys’ failings bugged me half as much as meeting Ray Bradbury and finding out he is Ed Meese in horn-rims.)[/sub]
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/8 "2003-05-24T00:23:53Z")
Indeed. People seem to forget that Star Trek was never about _science_. It was an excuse to put interesting characters in interesting situations. I mean, where else can you write about what happens to an omnipotent childlike god who gets his powers taken away? Or a sentient machine having a conversation with its creator? Or what it would be like to live an entire lifetime in a short dream?
Of course, then they end up doing a Lwaxana episode and fuck up the groove, but that’s life.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/9 "2003-05-24T00:44:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike \*
> \*\ ***Luci** : I know Ellison …(…finding out he is Ed Meese in horn-rims.) \*\*
Maybe, maybe not. Did you by chance see Asimov when he was on Dick Cavett, flogging his book, the _Sensous Dirty Old Man_? But what the hell, read every word from years 9 to 14, so sure, give him a pass. I’m easy.
But shit! _Dangerous Visions_ and Ursula LeGuinn and early Larry Niven and _Stand on Zanzibar_ and Phillip Jose Farmer all about the same time frame…
And _Star Trek_ is science fiction!? My soul cringes and shrivels like a worm on a griddle.
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### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/10 "2003-05-24T00:51:33Z")
elucidator:
Not too mention \*Again Dangerous Visions[/ii] which has my second favorite Vonnegut story in it. “The Big Space Fuck”
Famer, Niven, Zanzibar, damn man for a cheesy liberal you have impeccable sci-fi taste.
Of course you also love Zelazny’s work, I’m sure, as well as Varley.
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### Author:  [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/11 "2003-05-24T01:10:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ben \*
> **He made a big point of saying that Star Trek was utter shit (specifically, it will “turn your brains into a puree of bat guano,”) compared to the brilliance of Dr. Who.**
You can’t blame him for speaking the truth here. 😃
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### Author:  [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/12 "2003-05-24T01:26:08Z")
Insufferable asshole? I’m fairly certain he is. However, as **Miller** pointed out, I don’t have to go out drinking with him or anything. And many of his short stories have kept me good company on lonely nights when hubby was working out of town. . .Oh, what the hell. I forgive him (I’m sure he’ll be comforted to hear that!:))
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/13 "2003-05-24T01:29:39Z")
You have to admit, the original _Star Trek_ had an enormous cheese factor, and even _TNG_ was rather sloppy with the actual science. I could go into all the technical implausibilities with the Star Trek universe, but that’s been done before, many times. The _fiction_ part of ST was great, but let’s face it, the “science” was on a par with _Lost in Space_.
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### Author:  [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/14 "2003-05-24T01:31:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by RexDart \*
> **And if we’re gonna pit authors now, let’s pit Robert Heinlein (who I otherwise like) for writing the single worst sci-fi novel of all time. I’d do it, but surely nobody actually made it through all ~300 pages of that ugly, ugly crap trying to stumble through that terrible nonsense language every other page.**
OK, I’ll bite: what Heinlein book are you talking about? I thought I had read all of them at the time he died, but I don’t know what you mean here.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/15 "2003-05-24T02:24:40Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by jackelope \*
> \*\*OK, I’ll bite: what Heinlein book are you talking about? I thought I had read all of them at the time he died, but I don’t know what you mean here. \*\*
I think he’s referring to “Number of the Beast”. But that’s based on which one of his novels I loath.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/16 "2003-05-24T02:26:54Z")
I assumed it was ASIASL which _is_ rather overrated.
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### Author:  [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/17 "2003-05-24T03:47:40Z")
I _like_ Harlan, even if he is a cranky bastard. In fact, that’s _why_ I like him! Yeah, he and I are both from Ohio, but, damnit, it’s _nice_ to hear someone who has something to say other than, “Gee, isn’t it all wonderful?” One of the thing’s that I _hate_ about the SciFi Channel now, is that they’ve done away with Harlan’s “I’m Pissed Off About ‘X’ This Week!” rants.
Oh, **DtC** , I assumed the Op’er was talking about _ **The Moon is a Harsh Mistress** _ which has the narrator speaking a bit of a hodge-podge language.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/18 "2003-05-24T04:19:47Z")
Ah, yes, **Moon**. I couldn’t get past the second chapter. Not one of his better efforts. **Time Enough for Love** is my favorite Heinlein but even that can get a little pretentious in parts.
I also think Harlan does great rants. I think he’d be a great radio talk show host.
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### Author:  [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/19 "2003-05-24T05:19:45Z")
I’ll say this for Asimov, his monumental ego sure came across amusingly in print. 🙂
(Alas, I just had to go back and change that to the past tense. I have trouble sometimes remembering he’s no longer with us …)
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### Author:  [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harlan-ellison-skewered-at-last/177148/20 "2003-05-24T05:28:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \*
> \*\*I think he’s referring to “Number of the Beast”. But that’s based on which one of his novels I loath. \*\*
Thank you for that, I thought it was just me. I was horrified to find that an author that I usually liked had written such absolute drivel.
Testy
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