Harper Lee writes article for Oprah.

Kalhoun spoke well of one of my posts! :eek: :smiley: <—proud smile.

shutterbug: 1. post more often; you have sound thoughts to contribute.

and 2. you raise some good points. I think of Laura Ingalls Wilder and the depth and breadth of knowledge she and her pioneer family had–they were not anomalies by any means. I don’t have the book to hand, but I have a book about an English lady who explored Estes Park CO and wrote of her travels. References to literature and poetry abound in her account, as does an intimate knowledge of scripture.

Maybe she and Wilder made it all up, but it seems to me that there was a focus on learning, bettering oneself and truly thinking things through pre WW2 that there isn’t today. Perhaps it was the advent of TV or the acceleration in science and technology to the degree that Joe Blow could no longer obtain a mastery of any one subject just by reading and dicussing that changed the focus so profoundly.

Certainly there has been a decrease in expectations and a lowering of standards regarding academic achievement in public schools today. A gross generalization, but overall I think it’s true. I cannot agree strongly enough with shutterbug --the whole AR program is messed up. Instead of having kids think critically and analyze the works they have read, it wants to make sure that the kids read every page. He or she is asked what color this character wore in what chapter or what the best friend’s nickname was–not whether that nickname symbolized something or effected the character in a way important to the plot. It’s an odd way to teach appreciation of literature. It does get kids to read-but to what end? I realize that anecdotes are like snowflakes on a March day here, but in 6th grade, I was reading Tennyson. I am only 43. My sophomore in HS, honors and AP classes, has yet to read Tennyson or any other major poet. I could go on, but the point is obvious.

That is not to say that reading and the enjoyment of literature are the only methods of gaining insight and improving intellgence. Acquiring factual knowledge online or from other a/v and print media is obviously of value. But the written word as a way to convey cultural and archetypal values (mores, really) is unparalleled.

Are the best years behind us in this regard? Ms Lee might think so. I prefer to think that we cannot say at present. Who knows where we are headed? Will people, once the struggle for existence and subsistence is over for all (or most)-will we become essentially large toddlers, content with noises, and lights and funny surprises, preoccupied with sex, gossip and crime? Or will we continue to grow as individuals and as a species in terms of understanding and in desiring complexities in our music, books and art? Stay tuned. :wink:

Yeah, and Andy Rooney and Gore Vidal think Ali G is a real, honest-to-God guy with a real, honest-to-God television show, and that his dumb-as-a-post persona is authentic.

Doesn’t make it true. It’s called being out of touch.

Who is Ali G?
:confused:

I still think your assumption, that fewer people read for entertainment now, is, at best, an unprovable assertion. You know lots of folks that don’t read. Big deal. I know lots that do. Where does that leave us? Anecdotaltown. Except that the statistics seem to support my position. As I said, more than twice the number of people that were even alive in the US in 1930 are now literate. This basically means that, if every man, woman, and child read obsessively in 1930 (100% of the population, which is an insanely high percentage,) the number of readers would have had to drop 60% (ish) since then. That’s crazy talk. It has not declined that much. If you think it has, that’s quite the extraordinary claim, and I’m a-goin’ to have to ask for a cite.

One of the many comedic personae of the ingenious Sacha Baron Cohen. HBO currently carries Da Ali G Show. It’s one of the funniest things on television today, and one of the things it neatly underlines on a consistent basis is what a unrealistically, cynically low opinion many people of older generations, even formerly “progressive” thinkers and authors, have of younger people.

The upshot, which Cohen drives home time after time after time, is that these people really have no idea of what’s actually happening out there these days. The Andy Rooney and Gore Vidal interviews were almost painfully, disturbingly difficult to watch. Funny as hell, though.

Sorry. I’m not sure that made a hell of a lot of sense. The above was based on the assumption that the number (not the percentage) of readers since 1930 has not increased at all, but has remained stable. Thus, if the number of readers had stayed the same, the percentage in society would have decreased.

Nope. If I really were that alone, how can you explain the huge success of Project Gutenberg?

The novel is a johnny-come-lately form of literature. Historically speaking, very few literate people have curled up with a novel, good or bad. I see no evidence that the vast ranks of readers from pre-novel eras had minds like empty rooms.

That assumption is not mine. I don’t “do” statistics here for a couple of reasons–primarily that so many other Dopers do them better and know how to navigate around the Net and their computers much better than I.

My assertion in this thread is that reading, in prior generations, was not solely for entertainment, but to enliven the mind and enrich the soul*. To focus on Serious Topics and philosophies was venerated. Not so today. I think Ms Lee is trying to get at that point. That’s all.

*That is, reading whether done for edification or for entertainment was aimed at improving yourself.

I really need to get HBO, but I have no time and less money… :slight_smile:

Sorry for the misattribution. But the assertion that reading was primarily done in the past for self-improvement or philosophical betterment or whatever is pretty silly too. After all, the 1930’s saw the rise of the comic book as a major commercial reading product. Also think about the pulps, the rise of pornography as a viable commercial enterprise, the cheap “reads,” etc., and I’m afraid there’s not much way to show that everybody at that time read for personal improvement.

Honestly, where does all this retroactive idealization of the past come from? It confuses the hell out of me. :confused:

Yes, no doubt book people talking about the place of books in their childhood 30 or more years before you were born can’t possibly be making a point about the difference between those two worlds, can they?

The sheer number of books sold today or the sheer number of readers today is not the issue. It is not what either Lee or Updike is talking about. They are comparing the place, the value, the appreciation, the meaning of books to the culture of one time as opposed to the culture of today. They are saying that it has changed. Immensely. Drastically. In ways you cannot even seem to comprehend.

All evidence - not just from the personal recollections of people who have been immersed in the culture of books their whole lives but from all historical reading I have done as a person obsessively interested in books and their culture - points to the simple fact that the world of books and reading today is nothing like that of the world of books and reading in the past.

I get that the comment about “empty minds” seemed to have inflamed you beyond the point of rational thought, but other than the increase in the population what possible evidence can you offer that books - and especially literary fiction of the sort that Updike and Lee wrote - have the same prominence in modern America as they did in the past?

On preview:

You think Harper Lee is idealizing the past? Are you kidding me?

And how does a statement that certain things in certain ways were better amount to idealization of the past? I think the present is the only time I would ever want to live in, but that’s not in any tiny bit inconsistent with my thinking that I don’t like certain things about the present or that progress is not a simple upward gradient in every possible aspect of life. If you haven’t lived long enough to understand this simple truth about the world, you are a very young 34.

Who is idealizing the past? I would look askance at anyone who did so–but there are certain attributes of the past, just as there are of our culture today that are worth upholding or praising. How is the notion that people did read for enlightenment in the past somehow “dissing” the present?

Books, intellectualism etc WERE esteemed and valued prior to WW2–for all I know, I run with the wrong crowd and they still are valued today. I don’t see it. I see best sellers that contain appalling errors of syntax, spelling and even logic. It’s not about self reflection nowadays, it seems to be more about navel gazing and making sure that your feelings are validated. Not a bad thing, but did it have to come at the intellect’s expense?
I need books to live. I need the handed-ness of a book, the feel of the paper, the weight of it, the texture of the cover in my hands. I need to enter other worlds, and explore ethics and mores vicariously. There is nothing wrong with doing so via film or internet or whatever, but please don’t insist that the emphasis on books has not waned or that in competing with other media, books and reading has not suffered.

I will agree wholeheartedly that more people read these days–but what are they reading? Content matters, as does writing ability, IMO–how can it not? Great literature challenges the reader and changes him or her as well. Such cannot be said of most published material today. (I hold the same opinion of film, btw–entertainment for the masses tends to pander to the lowest common denominator).

There was Victorian porn-hell, there probably been porn since the cave men drew on cave walls…any way, I’m getting OT. Suffice it to say that stating that certain attributes of a previous time were good does not make one a sentimental, nostalgic fool.

Off to read to my youngest son before bed. :slight_smile:

Err, basically, cite?

In light of the pulps, comix, porn, and magazines of the earlier time we’re discussing, can you, in any concrete terms, prove this? The vast majority of things published, bought, and read in the 1930’s was utter tripe.

Of course they can if they are truly familiar with the two worlds. Most older folks, however, don’t bother with, or are intimidated by, or don’t approach the subject with an open mind, or lost track of culture somewhere along the way. It’s called the generation gap, or as Abe Simpson put it, “I used to be With It. But then they changed what It was. Now what I’m with isn’t It, and what’s It seems scary and wierd. It’ll happen to you.” Frankly, no, I’m not sure a woman who has been cloistered away in Monroeville, Alabama for 40 years has any right to pass judgment on modern literary culture. Well, she has the right, but not necessarily the qualifications, to do so.

I know you don’t seem to think that she was passing negative judgment on the culture at large. Poppycock. From what little I’ve been able to dredge up on the letter (I couldn’t get my hands on the magazine today, and most news sources are running the same AP wire story that includes the couple of quotes seen in the CNN article,) she also mentions a distaste for computers, saying that some things should be done with soft pages, not cold metal.

Well no shit. There’s lots and lots and lots of fully modernized, computer-friendly people out there, including me, that would agree with her. In other words, what she is talking about, and seems to be talking about in the whole letter, from her mention of the specific children’s books, to her father reading four papers a day, to her brothers reading to her to keep her from annoying them, has everything to do with how she has a personal relationship with books. She then makes a set of broad-brush general statements about modern culture implying that modern people do not have a personal relationship with books.

This is completely untrue, and totally insupportable. Shall I tell you how many book clubs I have belonged to? How many active book clubs I know of? Books are still a cultural force. Very much so.

Furthermore, your continual assumption of the upper intellectual hand, as implied by your repeated use of phrases like “in ways you can not even comprehend” and “inflamed you beyond the point of rational thought” are demeaning and insulting. Cut it out. Argumentum ad hominem is bad debate.

Sorry. Poorly constructed. I meant “…thought,” is…"

One other quick thing:

Pure idealism. Exactly whose culture of the past are you talking about? Poor Southern white farmers? Rich New York socialites? Black sharecroppers? Lower-middle-class Detroit factory workers? Are you seriously arguing that books had this great cultural value across all strata of society? Cause that’s just silly. How many actual books do you think my mom’s family had in the cabin on Brasstown Bald during the Depression? How many do you think Leadbelly read in Angola Prison? How many of the poor sharecroppers in the Mississippi Delta in the 1930’s could even read?

Lee is not talking about the culture of the past. She’s talking about her personal past, and making a wholly invalid comparison to today’s culture. She’s not comparing like terms.

You keep talking about today. They keep talking about yesterday. And yet you don’t see that there is a difference.

Uh, huh? She talks about her past, and then makes a statement (at least two, actually, from what I’ve been able to find,) about today. I have no problems with past/present relationships.

I can say the same thing about you too. Thanks. :smiley:

I tried to read the rest of Harper Lee’s article on Orpah’s website, but it said to buy the magazine. The woman gives away a bunch of stuff (okay, she lets companies to give away their stuff on her show), but she won’t post the Harper Lee article on her webiste for free. How annoying…she won’t get my $4.00. I will read it at the library for free. You heard it hear first, Oprah’s going broke because I showed her the power of the dollar. :wink:

I’ll be buying it as soon as I can, and I swear that if I feel I’ve misrepresented her letter, I’ll offer a full retraction. I have no wish to pillory her unjustly.

Well, I offered up a cite that said that 40% of Brits don’t read two books per year. That seems to back up my point.

I can’t add anything to what **EleanorRigby ** has said (as per usual!). It’s not simply the act of reading. It’s learning *how * to read critically, understanding the personal and social benefit of reading critically, and what you’re reading that is approached differently today than it was years ago. I don’t know how else to put it than to say that it’s a dying pasttime.

We’ve become a society obsessed with information (not that that’s necessarily a bad thing) at the expense of the kind of reading Eleanor Rigby, myself, and others are referring to here. Books played a huge part in shaping the person I am today. I believe M-TV and other like television shows are shaping most young people today. I know you don’t believe this, and it’s not something I can cite, but it is as plain as day to me.