# Harpocrates, Greek god of silence! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 23, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080 "2010-01-23T04:58:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/1 "2010-01-23T04:58:05Z")
I just ran across this. I have never heard it before. Has anyone? I was at the National Geographic site, and I came across the photos of the newly discovered cat goddess temple. [National Geographic | National Geographic](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/01/photogalleries/100121-cat-temple-egypt-pictures/#025664_600x450.jpg) This is a photo of a bust of Harpocrates, with the caption saying he’s “the Greek god of silence…adaptation of the Egyptian god known as Horus the child.” I immediately thought, “Harpo Marx? Incredible coincidence!!!” (Of course, Harpo’s character was only mute. He made sounds with his harp and horn.) So I went to [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpocrates) for more info. The article happens to say Groucho used to joke about this, but I’d love to know where to find that in print. The footnote there refers to the actual source of the nickname, namely, his harp. There are not a lot of references to this coincidence on the Web. In the NY Times, [William Safire](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/28/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-9-28-03-on-language-the-etymon-code.html?scp=2&sq=harpocrates&st=cse) only wonders if this was the true source of Harpo’s name. [This Salon article](http://www.salon.com/books/review/2005/07/01/promethea/index.html) mentions a bizarre comic book which includes > [@](#): > > …Harpo Marx (symbolizing Harpocrates, the Greek god of silence), honking rather than blowing his horn (“ankh ankh” – oh, yes, he’s wearing clothes decorated with ankhs, rather than the angel’s cross). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/2 "2010-01-23T05:45:24Z")
It’s a cool coincidence, but staggeringly implausible as an actual source. By the usual story (there are more than one, as with all stories about the Brothers), they were given the names during a poker game by a fan of giving people nicknames that ended in o. Most people today have their doubts about this character, since he doesn’t seem to have any existence outside of this one poker game. He’s wildly unlikely to have had a Greek classical education. Groucho was the reader in the family. (The joke was that Harpo never read any books, including his autobiography.) Groucho read serious novels but I don’t remember anything from the Greeks ever being mentioned. He was a dour Russian type of guy. If he knew of the name he certainly would have mentioned it at least once in his many books. He doesn’t, so I don’t know where Wiki is getting its source from. A search of Google Books finds many others have noticed the link. Reading comics: how graphic novels work and what they mean By Douglas Wolk (2007) Abrahadabra: Understanding Aleister Crowley’s Thelemic Magick By Rodney Orpheus (2005) Notes on the possibilities and attractions of existence: selected poems … By Anselm Hollo (2001) Wordlessness By Bart Verschaffel, Mark Verminck (1993) [they say they’re the first to suggest this] A Pleasure in Words By Eugene T. Maleska (1982) Introduction to film structure By Peter L. Klinge, Lee McConkey (1982) The Volta Review, Volume 38 (1936) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/3 "2010-01-23T05:58:39Z")
I’m not going to be convinced until someone Photoshops a fright wig and maybe a beat-up hat onto that bust. In reality, though, the truth is obvious: Harpo played the harp, hence, “Harpo.” Now, if he’d just been a mute character who played another instrument, this would be believable. But this is a very roundabout version of a story with a simpler explanation. Is there really no other documentation of this monologist named Art Fisher, **Exapno Mapcase**? I’ve read Groucho and Harpo’s books but have not gotten around to the Crichton book. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/4 "2010-01-23T06:06:00Z")
The bio _Groucho: The Life and Times of Julius Henry Marx_ says the inspiration for the nicknames was a comic strip popular at the time that had many characters’ names that ended in ‘-o’. I don’t have my copy of the book anymore, or I could post the name of the comic strip. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/5 "2010-01-23T06:19:40Z")
The real research on the subject is to be found in Simon Louvish’s _Monkey Business_, where he consults Paul Wesolowski, the foremost Marx Brothers fan, founder of the Marx Brotherhood and the erstwhile fan history publication the _Freedonia Gazette_, whose house is filled from top to bottom with every piece of Marx memorabilia ever made and a newspaper clipping file that tracks their every appearance in vaudeville. I’ve been there and it is mindboggling. Anyway, Louvish writes of the two: > [@](#): > > Neither he nor I have been able to find hair nor hide of Art Fisher. Far from being a monologuist, he appears to have been an illusionist, vanishing himself out of history. Harpo, BTW, doesn’t name Art Fisher, doesn’t give a date, and places the poker game in a completely different city. But that’s par for Harpo’s memory. Groucho also says that the trend for naming people with -o endings came from the comic strip Sherlocko the Monk. (Harpo calls it, incorrectly, Knocko the Monk.) It even had a character named Groucho, along with gems like Yanko the Dentist and Hamfatto. Sherlocko’s buddy was named Watso. But that strip ended in 1913 after Conan Doyle sued and made it change its name to Hawkshaw the Detective. And the usual date given for the naming was not until 1914. And there is no trace of their using the names professionally until 1919 and their birth names kept appearing until as late as 1924. It’s coincidence. High class, finest kind coincidence, to be sure. But coincidence nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/6 "2010-01-23T06:26:15Z")
Very interesting. As usual I wonder how this ever got to be such a mystery. As long as we’re talking coincidences, isn’t “harp” sometimes a derisive nickname for Irish people? I’m sure I’ve heard that somewhere and I wondered if it fed into Harpo’s nickname, too. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/7 "2010-01-23T16:33:02Z")
Urban Dictionary has two entries on this. > [@](#): > > A harp is a nickname for an irishman living in america > american said: oi you Harp > irishman chases the american and kills him > the end > > (1) A paddy, mick, Irishman. MIldly pejorative. Refers to the national instrument of Eire. > (2) A harmonica or mouth organ. > “I’m always sharp > When playin’ the harp, > 'Cause my heart belongs to Daddy!” > – Cole Porter So this harp is the wrong kind of musical instrument. And the Marxes weren’t Irish, but German. And Jewish, for those who think that’s an ethnicity. I’m not seeing the connection. If there was ever a situation set up for Occam’s Razor, it’s this one. Adolph played the harp, so he’s Harpo. Groucho and Zeppo are in dispute, but not Harpo. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/8 "2010-01-24T00:41:22Z")
I forget- which one is the OP named after? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/9 "2010-01-24T00:54:46Z")
I read once in one of Isaac Asimov’s popular histories that Isis was often portrayed with the child Horus sitting in her lap with his finger to his lip, which was merely meant to show him doing something a child would do; but the Greeks misinterpreted this and thought it meant Horus was a “god of silence,” which he was not. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/10 "2010-01-24T03:15:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Groucho also says that the trend for naming people with -o endings came from the comic strip Sherlocko the Monk. (Harpo calls it, incorrectly, Knocko the Monk.) In this, Harpo is correct. Gus Mager created **Knocko the Monk** in 1904. He changed it to Rhymo the Monk, then back to Knocko, then added new strips, including **Groucho the Monk** and **Henpecko the Monk**. Finally in 1910, he created **Sherlocko the Monk** , which was his most popular work. He changed the name to **Hawkshaw the Detective** in 1913, when he moved from **The New York Journal** to **The New York World**.\* Conan Doyle had nothing to due with the name change; in addition to moving from Hearst to Pulitzer, Mager wanted to make a change from monkeys to human characters in his strip. [This from **The World Encyclopedia of Comics** by Maurice Horne]. Mager later revived Sherlocko for several months in 1924-25, another indication that he didn’t drop the strip for legal reasons. So the various Mager’s Monks strips were popular for nine years, more than enough to stay on the public consciousness for a few years later. It would be like naming a couple today “Ross and Rachel.” John Ciardi also mentioned “Harpocrates” in one of his reference books. \*As was typical of the time: artists would be hired by other newspapers and be allowed to draw the characters while the original newspaper kept the same name of the strip ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/11 "2010-01-24T03:35:03Z")
[Toonpedia](http://www.toonopedia.com/hawkshaw.htm) says: > [@](#): > > In fact, Arthur Conan Doyle, Holmes’s creator, noticed the resemblance himself, and threatened legal action over the use of the name (if not the concept, which he had no control over). That’s why, when Mager moved to the rival Pulitzer papers, instead of calling his new Sunday page Sherlocko the Detective, he took a name from another source, one safely in the public domain. Playwright Tom Taylor’s 1866 stage production, The Ticket-of-Leave Man, had starred a detective named Hawkshaw, so Mager’s Hawkshaw the Detective debuted in The New York World on February 23, 1913. [Steve Stiles Holmes comic parodies page](http://stevestiles.com/holmes.htm): > [@](#): > > The series increased in popularity when Mager added a new Monk to the roster on December 9, 1910, Sherlocko the Monk. By 1913, however, Doyle threatened a lawsuit and thus Hawkshaw the Detective was born on February 23, 1913, sans the ape-like characteristics, running as a full-page strip until mid-1922. And Louvish in his book, which is where I took the info from. But Louvish didn’t mention Knocko the Monk, and it seems that he may have gotten Art Fisher wrong too. [Art Fisher and Groucho the Monk](http://www.marx-brothers.org/marxology/fisher.htm): > [@](#): > > Over the years, the story has been questioned and it has been especially hard to track down Art Fisher the monologist. Some people have even began do doubt his existence. Could he just have been a figment of Groucho’s imagination? Recently, fellow Marxonian Noah Diamond has found proof that Art Fisher DID exist, and that he indeed was a monologist - maybe we would call him a stand-up comedian today? - and an imitator. Fisher is mentioned in a lot of paper clippings unearthed by Diamond, for example “Art Fisher, the cowboy comedian, with funny sayings and antics” (Hagerstown, MD Daily Mail, 15 April 1910), “Art Fisher sings and offers a number of imitations which are clever” (Waterloo Evening Courier, 22 August 1911), “Art Fisher is a mimic of much merrymaking power, and he wins applause right along” (Iowa City Daily Press, 14 November 1911) and “Art Fisher, the eccentric monologuist, will try his array of nonsense for the first time on a Washington audience” (Washington Post, 9 May 1912). Ah, well. Everybody knows more than anybody. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/12 "2010-01-24T03:51:47Z")
Nice, but the change clearly was tied in with Mager changing newspapers and deciding he wanted to ditch the monkeys. Conan Doyle may have threatened legal action, but it doesn’t sound like he did anything about it, especially since Sherlocko would most likely be allowed as parody. (I do trust Horne over Markstein in matters about comic strips.) ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/13 "2010-01-24T03:58:54Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I forget- which one is the OP named after? The OP is named after one? **Exapno Mapcase** is named after Harpo Marx, as rendered by writing his name in Cyrillic (looking, I guess, something like \; I’m too lazy to type in the proper Cyrillic characters when a Latin lookalike is available), then playfully trying to read it as though it were in English (squinting one’s eyes to see \<п\> as lookalike \), then transcribing it back down into more idiomatic English orthography. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/14 "2010-01-24T04:14:35Z")
I thought I knew who the actual OP is named for, but it [looks like I’m wrong about that too](http://www.giraffeboards.com/showthread.php?p=8374#post8374). > [@](#): > > I’m rowrrbazzle at the SDMB. It was only after I chose that name that I found out there was a connection with Pogo Possum, which occasionally confuses people. Sure confuses me. There’s another connection? I mean the Pogo rowrbazzle is spelled with only one “r” in the middle, but 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/15 "2010-01-24T16:29:21Z")
> [@](#): > > I forget- which one is the OP named after? Ron Howard’s character. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/16 "2010-01-24T17:06:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Ron Howard’s character. I say again 😕 ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/17 "2010-01-25T01:31:48Z")
O.P. –\> Opie “Exapno Mapcase”, explained by Harpo, from “Harpo Speaks!”: [exapno mapcase | Harpo Marx was the first US entertainer to … | Flickr](http://www.flickr.com/photos/99115850@N00/3368428791/) As to my name, the context I originally read it in was something like “He’s getting rowrbazzle bucks for that.” In other words, it meant a surprisingly large but indefinite amount. Only later did I find out the connection with Pogo. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Freeland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Mike\_Freeland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Freeland)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/18 "2013-06-11T19:35:15Z")
I joined this forum just to respond to this thread, which is apparently a bit stale now. Back around 1970, I ran across Harpocrates in a dictionary while looking up some long-forgotten word, and immediately, of course, thought of Harpo. I think an essential point is being missed in all these discussions: The question should not be whether Harpo got his name from Harpocrates, but if his (vocal) silence is a nod to Harpocrates. He could easily have been Harpo without the non-speaking schtick. And since that moment in 1970, I’ve been vainly researching the brothers of Harpocrates: Grouchocrates, Chicocrates and Zeppocrates. Does any of you have any information on them? If so, you might provide me with the means by which to return to life a happy man. M Completely off-topic, but maybe someone here knows: There is a term for an argumentative device in which a person states “Anyone with any intelligence at all will agree that…” or the like. Can anyone tell me what that term is? It’s not _argumentum ad hominum_, though I imagine it’s a variation of it. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/19 "2013-06-11T20:48:36Z")
Well, can’t help you on the others, but Zombocrates, God of Resurrected Threads, has made yet another appearance. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080/20 "2013-06-12T00:21:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Urban Dictionary has two entries on this. > > > [@](#): > > > > A harp is a nickname for an irishman living in america > > american said: oi you Harp > > irishman chases the american and kills him > > the end > > > > (1) A paddy, mick, Irishman. MIldly pejorative. Refers to the national instrument of Eire. > > (2) A harmonica or mouth organ. > > “I’m always sharp > > When playin’ the harp, > > 'Cause my heart belongs to Daddy!” > > – Cole Porter > > So this harp is the wrong kind of musical instrument. What? No!!! Are relying upon the accuracy of Urban Dictionary. :eek: Clearly this UD entry is, quite gratuitously, conflating two quite different meanings of “harp”. The [Irish harp](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_harp) is a stringed instrument, not quite identical to, but not hugely dissimilar from, the [thing used by Harpo](http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/M/Harpo-Marx-16242175-1-402.jpg), which, by the look of it, was a regular “concert” or “orchestral” harp. [“Harp” as a term for a type of harmonica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_harp) comes from the African American blues tradition. (I don’t really know the origin, but it seems plausible to guess that, apart from teh coincidence of the the similarly beginning “proper” names, it originated as a bit of self-deprecating humor, comparing the cheap, demotic, crude sounding harmonica, used in the music of the lowest caste of American society, with the expensive, celestial sounding harp, and that was used in highbrow, fancy-schmantzy symphonic music for rich people.) Anyway, my point is that the Irish type of harp is _not_ the wrong kind of musical instrument (or scarcely so), and the harmonica-harp has nothing to do with the issue. Nevertheless, your larger point is surely correct: there was nothing Irish about the Marx brothers, so there is no reason to think that Harpo’s name had anything to do with any derogatory term for the Irish. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harpocrates-greek-god-of-silence/526080.md?page=2)