# Harry Dresden Meets Aleister Crowley **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 6, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780 "2009-10-06T04:23:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/1 "2009-10-06T04:23:39Z")
In the [Dresden Files](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_files) novels, it is hinted now and then that there are [neopagan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) witches around the fringes of Chicago’s magical community, not very important players, none ever appears as a character . . . but no mention is ever made of what might be called real-life wizards, that is, [ceremonial magicians,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_magic) or practitioners of Magick (pronounced may-jik), in the modern tradition of the Rosicrucians, Order of the Golden Dawn, Ordo Templi Orientis, and [Aleister Crowley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley) (rhymes with “holy”). I have seen some fictional treatments of the latter, but only in fantasy literature that is more intellectual than action-oriented, such as some of [Robert Anton Wilson’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Anton_Wilson) novels _(Illuminatus!, Masks of the Illuminati, The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles)._ It would be an interesting crossover, don’t you think? _Harry Potter Meets Aleister Crowley_ also has possibilities . . . [Fascinating article on Aleister Crowley,](http://books.google.com/books?id=v5_WwEz19qwC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=what+rough+beast+avram+davidson&source=bl&ots=lL05Ogummb&sig=bakEdQWA2KeTrjCZa3IrzhrYJAM&hl=en&ei=tMTKSsSlLtWutgevh8zIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=what%20rough%20beast%20avram%20davidson&f=false) by the late Avram Davidson (scroll from p. 103). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/2 "2009-10-06T21:35:15Z")
bump ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/3 "2009-10-07T00:52:25Z")
Do you mean that they practice “Mage-ic” as a sort of religion, the way modern day “druids” gather at Stonehenge and other sites? If they’re simply paying homage to or honoring the reality of magic, then they’re probably looked upon as mostly harmless. If they think their ceremonies will actually allow them to perfrom real magic, the real wizards probably regard them as a bunch of wankers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/4 "2009-10-07T01:42:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Do you mean that they practice “Mage-ic” as a sort of religion, the way modern day “druids” gather at Stonehenge and other sites? If they’re simply paying homage to or honoring the reality of magic, then they’re probably looked upon as mostly harmless. If they think their ceremonies will actually allow them to perfrom real magic, the real wizards probably regard them as a bunch of wankers. But, in the Dresdenverse, it is entirely plausible ceremonial magicians **do** perform real magic, although in a different style and perhaps with fundamentally different ends than the magic of the White Council wizards. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/5 "2009-10-07T09:00:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > _Harry Potter Meets Aleister Crowley_ also has possibilities . . . > > [Fascinating article on Aleister Crowley,](http://books.google.com/books?id=v5_WwEz19qwC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=what+rough+beast+avram+davidson&source=bl&ots=lL05Ogummb&sig=bakEdQWA2KeTrjCZa3IrzhrYJAM&hl=en&ei=tMTKSsSlLtWutgevh8zIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=what%20rough%20beast%20avram%20davidson&f=false) by the late Avram Davidson (scroll from p. 103). Thanks for inspiring me, I was looking for something new to read and the Dresden Files seem to be the thing, what with the current explosion of Vampire lore on tv and in films. I can’t get a result from your last link though, apparently no preview of the book is available. Any suggestions please? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/6 "2009-10-07T13:31:42Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > I can’t get a result from your last link though, apparently no preview of the book is available. Any suggestions please? The link works for me – it takes me to Google-Books, straight to p. 103 of the book in the viewing-window, and from there you can scroll down and read the whole article. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/7 "2009-10-07T13:52:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, in the Dresdenverse, it is entirely plausible ceremonial magicians **do** perform real magic, although in a different style and perhaps with fundamentally different ends than the magic of the White Council wizards. It’s my understanding that in the Dresdenverse that almost anyone can do magic, it’s just that for the vast majority their power is so utterly trivial that it almost doesn’t count. I don’t recall book and chapter but I recall Harry saying that anyone can learn to make a magic circle; and that there are the people who can do some magic (like the women that in “White Knight”) but are low-powered enough that the white council doesn’t bother recruiting. Ceremonial magic _can_ work for people who have no real talent for magic (for example in "Blood Rites) by basically using the power of fae/demons and is usually destructive in nature. The white council interferes with this by either suppressing the ceremonies that work, or by spreading some of them so far that their power is diluted into uselessness. They really seem to hate (effective) ceremonial magic. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/8 "2009-10-07T16:33:03Z")
Spoilers ahead: In the first book _Storm Front_, isn’t a ceremonial magician at the root of the problem? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/9 "2009-10-07T18:33:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Spoilers ahead: > > In the first book _Storm Front_, isn’t a ceremonial magician at the root of the problem? I think that was a sorcerer; ie someone with a fair bit of magical talent, but not enough talent/training to be a wizard. But he was using rituals to get more power from his followers, and Harry did speculate that he was getting outside assistance. So, _spoiler_ was a talented magic user, but he was likely using ceremonial magic to give himself a boost. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/10 "2009-10-07T18:38:46Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > It’s my understanding that in the Dresdenverse that almost anyone can do magic, it’s just that for the vast majority their power is so utterly trivial that it almost doesn’t count. I don’t recall book and chapter but I recall Harry saying that anyone can learn to make a magic circle; and that there are the people who can do some magic (like the women that in “White Knight”) but are low-powered enough that the white council doesn’t bother recruiting. In Blood Rites, Harry shows Butters how to make a circle. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/11 "2009-10-07T18:45:05Z")
I know nothing about the Dresden books, but adding Aleister Crowley to anything automatically makes it freaky! Too bad that Google books link isn’t working for some- it worked for me & Davidson tells some tales on A.C. that I’ve never heard. There is a graphic novel HEAVEN’S WAR, which has “Inkling” Charles Williams & his buddies John & Jack fighting Crowley on the Astral Plane. Oh, John and Jack’s full names are John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and Clive Staples “Jack” Lewis. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/12 "2009-10-07T19:05:40Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > I think that was a sorcerer; ie someone with a fair bit of magical talent, but not enough talent/training to be a wizard. But he was using rituals to get more power from his followers, and Harry did speculate that he was getting outside assistance. > > So, _spoiler_ was a talented magic user, but he was likely using ceremonial magic to give himself a boost. So essentially he WAS a cermonial magician, right? Or does ceremonial magician mean something other than a person who uses ceremonial magic? Not trying to be a dickish pedant here–just not sure I understand what you’re saying. Is the idea that specific named CM groups oughtta be used? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/13 "2009-10-07T19:39:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So essentially he WAS a cermonial magician, right? Or does ceremonial magician mean something other than a person who uses ceremonial magic? > > Not trying to be a dickish pedant here–just not sure I understand what you’re saying. Is the idea that specific named CM groups oughtta be used? All wizards in human history have been “ceremonial” in a sense, but I was referring to those in a specific modern tradition indigenous to Western Civilization (though drawing on non-Western sources to some extent), and postdating the Renaissance (though drawing on pre-Renaissance sources, etc.); and a tradition which is distinguishable from other contemporaneous forms, such as folk magic and the witchcraft of neopaganism or Wicca. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/14 "2009-10-07T19:46:02Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I know nothing about the Dresden books, but adding Aleister Crowley to anything automatically makes it freaky! Too bad that Google books link isn’t working for some- it worked for me & Davidson tells some tales on A.C. that I’ve never heard. > > There is a graphic novel HEAVEN’S WAR, which has “Inkling” Charles Williams & his buddies John & Jack fighting Crowley on the Astral Plane. > > Oh, John and Jack’s full names are John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and Clive Staples “Jack” Lewis. Golly gee wizards, in **that** case, I sure hope Crowley **wins!** 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/15 "2009-10-07T20:08:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So essentially he WAS a cermonial magician, right? Or does ceremonial magician mean something other than a person who uses ceremonial magic? > > Not trying to be a dickish pedant here–just not sure I understand what you’re saying. Is the idea that specific named CM groups oughtta be used? Eh, I was drawing a distinction between the way wizards work in the Dresdenverse and non-wizards who do magic. Wizard’s magic is based on focusing their will and power to perform whatever effect they are trying for; they can use items/rituals/chants etc to help with focus but the the magic is done and limited by their own power and knowledge. There also exists, in the Dresdenverse, specific ceremonies of the form use item X and chant Y at time T to get effect Z that don’t depend on the person performing the ceremony having any magical power or skill. In other words for wizards ceremonies, if they are used at all are unnecessary. For others, ceremonies are entirely necessary and the heavy lifting is done by demons / faries / other supernatural creatures. That’s not to say that wizards _can’t_ use ceremonial magic of the 2nd kind, it’s just generally a bad idea since the outside supernatural entities are generally only in it to cause trouble. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/16 "2009-10-07T21:15:33Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > That’s not to say that wizards _can’t_ use ceremonial magic of the 2nd kind, it’s just generally a bad idea since the outside supernatural entities are generally only in it to cause trouble. Unless you know how to deal with them – like Harry with the faerie Toot-Toot and his friends; he expresses no regrets about that relationship. (OTOH, when he needs information from the demon Chauncy, he’s always very, very wary.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-dresden-meets-aleister-crowley/512780/17 "2009-10-14T04:12:09Z")
BTW, I started thinking about this when I rented [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0974536/) new movie.