# Harry Potter and Kreacher **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 28, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177 "2011-06-28T18:55:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/21 "2011-06-29T03:30:01Z")
kreacher doesn’t get along with dobby. in half blood prince, harry has kreacher follow draco to find up what he is up to. when he calls kreacher to appear, kreacher and dobby are in a bit of a wrestle over something. so when harry wants kreacher to spy on draco, dobby jumps in to help harry and considers it the best thing in the world to help harry. kreacher thinks that harry is way under his regard and that draco should be the one he is able to serve. kreacher does change toward harry in the end. dobby and winkie are free elves that work at hogwarts. dobby was freed in chamber of secrets, winkie in goblet of fire. dumbledore offers employment to dobby after he is unable to find employ elsewhere, when winkie is freed (she is very much not happy about it) dobby asks dumbledore if she can work at hogwarts as well. and yes, mahaloth, dobby is not in that scene in the book. he doesn’t appear until they are in the malfoy dungeon. kreacher is sent to hogwarts to work in half blood prince when it is comfirmed that harry is his master. it is felt that this would be best as he knows too much about the order to be left alone at grimald place. indeed reading the books would be wonderful. if you do i would wait until after seeing deadly hallows part 2 to read the deadly hallows book, if you are planning to see it. if you read book 7 too close to the movie you will notice all the changes and not enjoy the movie for what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/22 "2011-06-29T03:58:00Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > The Weasley family is poor, at least by pure-blood standards. Why can’t they just conjure up money or better clothes? Actually, I thought it _was_ said in one of the books that you can’t just conjure up money. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/23 "2011-06-29T04:49:47Z")
I’ve just re-read the series (I’m in _Deathly Hallows_ now, though I had to skip _Order of the Phoenix_ because it’s not at the house at the moment, so I had to resort to only watching the movie), and I haven’t seen a reference to it, but I may have missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/24 "2011-06-29T05:28:57Z")
A Harry Potter [wiki](http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency) mentions Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration (from the last novel), which says that money can’t be made from nothing (although using the Philosopher’s Stone, it’s possible to transform other metals to gold). ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/25 "2011-06-29T09:55:47Z")
Okay, fair enough…what about new robes? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/26 "2011-06-29T11:50:53Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > But they’re not family elves, though, because that would mean that wizarding families could never move house. I mean, think of what might happen if the Malfoys (prior to freeing Dobby) decided to trade up to an even more oversized and conspicuous manor house. Would they have to leave Dobby behind to spill all their deep dark secrets to the new owners? And if the elf remains loyal to the family even if they move house but has to remain in the old house, that doesn’t make a lot of sense. > > I think they’re “house elves” using “house” to mean “lineage” rather than “physical abode.” They’re only owned by aristocratic wizarding families. They _never_ move house - and it’s not even just a house, it’s ‘the family seat.’ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/27 "2011-06-29T13:04:49Z")
I always read it as “House Elf” [as opposed to “Field Elf”,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Negro)myself…my reading, not Rowling’s intention, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/28 "2011-06-29T13:30:23Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Okay, fair enough…what about new robes? Good point. I think Harry got Ron his better robes after winning the Triwizard cup. No idea why they can not conjure up that. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/29 "2011-06-29T14:31:35Z")
I’d say House Elves are sort of like magical furniture. Just like furniture, you can leave them to someone in your will - or, more relevantly, if you get the house, you get what’s in it, whether it’s dishes, furniture, or the occasional small magical creature. Also like furniture, if you sold your house and moved, you’d have the option to take it with you. I can’t believe the huge distance between what I should have been doing just now and the action of typing that paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/30 "2011-06-29T15:01:51Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Good point. I think Harry got Ron his better robes after winning the Triwizard cup. No idea why they can not conjure up that. It was Fred and George buying new robes for Ron, at Harry’s request. Not that this really addresses the point. There is never an attempt at a logical explanation for it (this is a book about magic!) but I could think of two possible explanations (aka “fanwanks”): Anything useful in the wizard world is not something you can conjure up. Otherwise you wouldn’t have to buy schoolbooks or dress robes or wants, you wouldn’t have to buy Potions supplies, you wouldn’t have to pay a high price for unicorn hair and acromantula venom, everyone would be rich. Another explanation: those things _can_ be conjured up but it is very difficult and so most people don’t bother. e.g. to take a Muggle example, I could make my own clothes, but it is more efficient for me to work at my job and buy the clothes. It would take me too much time and effort to make them myself. ---
**Author:** ![Minnie\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Minnie\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minnie_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/31 "2011-06-29T15:15:23Z")
I can’t remember where or in which book, but I thought I remember reading that you can’t conjure up money or food. You can magic up the cooking process, but the raw ingredients must be there. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/32 "2011-06-29T15:19:09Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > A Harry Potter [wiki](http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency) mentions Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration (from the last novel), which says that money can’t be made from nothing (although using the Philosopher’s Stone, it’s possible to transform other metals to gold). > [@Minnie\_Luna](#): > > I can’t remember where or in which book, but I thought I remember reading that you can’t conjure up money or food. You can magic up the cooking process, but the raw ingredients must be there. In Deathly Hallows it is mentioned that you cannot conjure up food. Nothing is said about money, but JK Rowling might have mentioned it on her website or in one of her interviews. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/33 "2011-06-29T15:30:29Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > I think they’re “house elves” using “house” to mean “lineage” rather than “physical abode.” The elves at Hogwarts are also house elves, and there is no family house associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/34 "2011-06-29T15:58:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s an aspect of personal loyalty, too, above and beyond the magical loyalty to the house and family. In the books, Kreacher _obeyed_ Harry, but was uncooperative at first, only actually helping when he learned that Harry intended to finish the work that Regulus Black (whom Kreacher still regards personally as his “real” master) started. > [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > From my reading, what J.K. Rowling was trying to show was that Kreacher started being loyal to Harry Potter, his new master, when Harry Potter treated him kindly - gave him the fake locket as a family heirloom. Dumbledore hints in the books that Kreacher might not have betrayed Sirius Black if Sirius wasn’t such a jerk towards Kreacher. Ding ding ding. The point of Kreacher’s change in behavior is that Harry and Hermione actually treat him well, even though he’s a nasty bugger. He starts to change his behavior toward them, and even his attitudes. He was basically a muggle hating bastard because that’s what House Black wanted him to be. He would have been better to Sirius, but Sirius couldn’t accept Kreacher’s attitudes and spouting of hatreds, so he treated Kreacher badly rather than trying to treat him well and win him over, and show him the error of his attitudes. That’s pretty explicit in the books. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Good point. I think Harry got Ron his better robes after winning the Triwizard cup. No idea why they can not conjure up that. The narrativium won’t allow it. Arnold has better answers. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/35 "2011-06-29T16:06:00Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Ding ding ding. The point of Kreacher’s change in behavior is that Harry and Hermione actually treat him well, even though he’s a nasty bugger. He starts to change his behavior toward them, and even his attitudes. He was basically a muggle hating bastard because that’s what House Black wanted him to be. He would have been better to Sirius, but Sirius couldn’t accept Kreacher’s attitudes and spouting of hatreds, so he treated Kreacher badly rather than trying to treat him well and win him over, and show him the error of his attitudes. That’s pretty explicit in the books. Yeah, and it’s even foreshadowed when Sirius tells the trio up in the cave that you can always get a better measure of a man by how he treats his inferiors than how he treats his equals. I love Sirius, he’s one of my favorite characters in the books, but in a lot of ways both he and James were…well…kind of dicks. I mean, think of all the problems that could have been avoided if they hadn’t decided to start picking on Snape the first time they laid eyes on him on the Hogwarts Express. ---
**Author:** ![xkit0katx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/50afbb/32.png) [@xkit0katx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xkit0katx)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/36 "2011-06-29T16:10:58Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > i’m betting that sirius, no matter how much of a wild child and rule breaker, had a really good understanding of magical rules and how to use them creatively to get to the final goal. Quoted for truth - remember this is the guy who got out of Azkaban, not via brute force but by exploiting the fact that dementors can’t sense or affect animals, animagi included. That requires some pretty lateral thinking under pressure. My fanwank re. the issue of conjuring money or food or clothing: One runs slam into Conservation of Mass - you can’t create something from nothing. I guess you could pull needed elements out of the environment on the atomic level, but that would require a massive amount of energy and/or skill. Another way to do that would be transfiguring what you needed from something else on a more macro level (which is really working on the micro level anyway, though the caster’s not thinking about that). However transfiguration is shown in the books to be pretty dammed difficult, and possibly not permanent. If it were possible to simply transfigure lead (or whatever) into gold then the Philosopher’s Stone would be nothing more then a party trick. [QUOTE=Munch] The elves at Hogwarts are also house elves, and there is no family house associated with it. [/QUOTE] Their loyalty is to the castle as an entity in and of itself, and to the Four Founders - Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, and Slytherin - whose Houses came together to form Hogwarts. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/37 "2011-06-29T16:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Their loyalty is to the castle as an entity in and of itself Yeah - that was my point. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/38 "2011-06-29T17:15:36Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > He would have been better to Sirius, but Sirius couldn’t accept Kreacher’s attitudes and spouting of hatreds, so he treated Kreacher badly Dumbledore has said that Sirius treated pretty much all house elves like shit. Sirius may have been a good guy, but he was, well, basically racist against elves. Remember that “discrimination is bad, mmkay” is one of the key messages of the books, from the mouth of Rowling herself. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/39 "2011-06-29T17:43:24Z")
Leprechauns can “create gold”, but it doesn’t last. It either evaporates or turns to base metal (I can’t remember which) within a day. Really, all conjurations or transmutations (aside from nigh-legendary things like the Philosopher’s Stone) seem to be time-limited in the Potter books. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177/40 "2011-06-29T17:49:43Z")
Mahaloth: > [@](#): > > No idea why they can not conjure up that (robes). Conjuration ability in a wizard, which is a sub-category of transfiguration, seems to be based on the ability of the wizard to visualize the item in detail. In Harry’s and Ron’s and Hermione’s transfiguration classes it’s mentioned that they needed to memorize diagrams, and that causing simple creatures to vanish was easier than causing more complex creatures to vanish. We’ve seen both Dumbledore and McGonagall conjure chairs, but Dumbledore conjured roomy easy chairs while McGonagall conjures rigid wooden chairs. I imagine that in order to conjure clothing, one must be able to visualize the details, including the weave and cut of the cloth and the stitching and the trimming.Aside from the complexity of that, the clothes one would be able to conjure are probably limited in style to the wizard’s fashion imagination. I can definitely see that there is a place in the wizarding world for skilled tailors (like Madam Malkin) who either manufacture clothes in Muggle manner or whose specialist training or aptitude in clothing produces quality items magically. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-and-kreacher/587177.md?page=3)