# Harry Potter Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429 "2010-06-25T01:13:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/121 "2010-06-28T10:06:48Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > What I said is, don’t point out things based on **public information** if it won’t help town to know those things. A minor nitpick: did you actually say that? (snipped and bolded) > [@Rysto](#): > > So please, I’m asking all of you: if you are in possession of **non-public information** , think about whether it should be made public. What benefit is there to town to have that information in the open? What benefit is there to scum? There’s a difference between pointing out or analyzing information that is already public and sharing information which is non-public. I fully agree that it’s important to be sure that the benefit to Town is greater than the benefit to scum when deciding whether and/or when to disclose non-public information. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/122 "2010-06-28T10:39:40Z")
discussion of public material is de facto good and pro-town as mentioned by several people, it ensures that townies get full understanding of any revelations and minimises risk of a townie skimming over important info. disucssion of non-public info can be good or bad and which applies is a case by case decision. Non masons with info that are delaying the reveal are taking the risk that the info goes to their grave with them, but they are presumably taking this risk for an expected reward. I.e. cop not revealing night one inv, wanting to get more invs in etc etc. Only the player in question can make that judgment call. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/123 "2010-06-28T11:37:05Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > A minor nitpick: did you actually say that? (snipped and bolded) > > There’s a difference between pointing out or analyzing information that is already public and sharing information which is non-public. I was counting “conclusions based off of public knowledge” as non-public knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/124 "2010-06-28T11:41:18Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I was counting “conclusions based off of public knowledge” as non-public knowledge. Why or when would it not be in town’s best interests to share these conclusions? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/125 "2010-06-28T11:45:12Z")
> [@ColdPhoenix](#): > > Why or when would it not be in town’s best interests to share these conclusions? If you’ve concluded that so-and-so is a power role, keep your mouth shut. This isn’t rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/126 "2010-06-28T13:42:04Z")
You do have to balance that between expected gains for sneakily hinting who you might or might not be to interested parties. For example, I’ve seen games where a cop and doc have successfully made themselves known to each other in such a way that the cop got a lot of protection while the scum didn’t find the doc. On the other hand, I’ve seen games (like my first) where the cop breadcrumbed himself hard and the only people who picked up on it were the scum, so it goes. As always, my thoughts boil down to “We are all smart people, and we are all (especially power roles) able to and required to evaluate the consequences of our various available courses of action.” ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/127 "2010-06-28T14:15:58Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > I’m not sure where you’ve seen this, but IME once a scum player has been forced to false claim, it’s usually the other scum who are scrutinizing the hardest, in order to earn the most possible credit for “outing” the impostor, and earning the bus credit the fastest. > > RE: Rysto’s comments. They’re good laced with some real bad. > > The good: Think about the implications of what you wish to discuss before you discuss it. > > The bad: Don’t point out things that are based on public information. This is horrible advice. As town, we should assume that our adversaries are playing at the top of their game and not hope that they are missing things out. The possibility of error does exist and we should not discount it in our efforts to determine what is going on, but it should NOT be a guiding principle, or weigh heavily into determining whether or not something which can be distilled from public knowledge should be revealed. For the most part, this is closer to what I was trying to say. As a townie, if you have non-public information, there appears to be a one best time to say something. If you speak before this, it could be less than optimal for town. However, town _ **always** _ has an uphill battle. I frankly think that the one best time to speak will NEVER come, if everyone waits for the other in a game of chicken. In my experience, the only way that town gets ahead, is once something ““unexpected”” happens. That is, scum slip in one way or another. Town can then swoop in and reveal this that or the other. Something unexpected happens, a townie sticks his or her neck out, and the game proper begins. We don’t need to assume that Scum play on the top of their game. Scum start XX% ahead of town anyway, that it would approximate a great deal more than Town has period. It may not be the Top of their game, but its a hell of a head start. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The problem is that once you start discussing what makes someone likely to be town or scum, you’re giving the scum a nice, handy dandy blueprint for avoiding scumtells and giving off townie vibes. The secret to divining a player’s true alignment is in reading their posts and assessing their motivation for posting. Are they answering questions and trying to clear up misunderstandings? Are they talking in circles and clouding up the issues? Granted, you’re rarely going to see a post that is clearly nothing but circumspection, but try to look beneath the surface of the post to find the reason it was said. This is why I hate lurking and as the game continues, I wil advocate for the lynching of people who only post 3-4 game related posts a Day. Talking is good. The more talking we have, the more scum slips up and we can catch them. Right, and my quesiton from the start on Rysto was his motivation. I think the responses on his post all get to “motivation”. Why is he saying that? [Again, I would have called this WIFOM if I didn’t know any better.] But, I think we re-hash this part game and game again as well. Mafia will always give Scum a “town blueprint”. I know I have compared scum to rectangles and town to squares, and therefore all scum are also town, etc etc, in previous games. I am not going to rehash that, but, suffice to say, I think handing scum a town blueprint is inevitable. For the most part, experience on either side is enough of a blueprint anyway. I don’t think we should worry about it, because I think it happens, regardless. False claims have happened, and Im willing to guess that even more elaborate gambits by scum have occured in other games as well. **Is Day 1 always doomed to come down to a last 24 real world hour segment of discovery / slip / claim and a vote against (using the new information) it?** > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Talking is good. I am willing to bet there is an upper limit to this. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/128 "2010-06-28T14:25:34Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > You do have to balance that between expected gains for sneakily hinting who you might or might not be to interested parties. SNIP. I don’t think I did it the best way I could, but you also have a situation where you can **overplay your role** , once the game pretty much accepts (You are all but Mod-confirmed) you at your word of your claim. In LOST, I was Sawyer, I told the game, that at game start, I was handed a limited number of bullets\* to Vig with. I tried to imply that I was going to go on a spree if I made it to the next night. This was in efforts to get night killed. I held no additional bullets, and I was bluffing. I still like the move I attempted there. I think it would have worked, if I did something better. \*\* It would not have had a chance of working f I kept my mouth closed earlier.\*\* [Then again, let’s not forget that I Was basically Mod confirmed due to a rules loophole / backpedal.] - I don’t think I will ever convince you guys that I was not lying. I mean, I had one bullet, and from the start I did have a limited number. And using the rest of my bullets to kill as many people as I could, would still be 0, either way. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/129 "2010-06-28T14:49:26Z")
Well, I’m a little grumpy. **Mahaloth** , I totally understand why you cut me, but I do think you made the subs quite a bit early. (Especially since I told you in the other thread that I’m generally unavailable on weekends.) So I was really excited to see the thread and was just about to make my apologies for getting in late, and bam! I’m already out. It’s just unfortunate, is all - it would’ve been nice if you’d waited a bit longer. Anyway, I’ll watch from the sidelines. Again. My absence probably won’t hurt much; I’m a total newb. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/130 "2010-06-28T14:53:07Z")
And now I need to apologize to **Mahaloth**! He’d PM’d me a bunch of times, starting last Thursday. Yeah, I’m crap at checking PMs, but that’s really no excuse: had I checked them, I’d have been on the ball, instead of just noticing this today. My bad. Thanks for the opportunity, though - keep me in mind for next time. And I’ll watch and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/131 "2010-06-28T15:02:51Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > And now I need to apologize to **Mahaloth**! He’d PM’d me a bunch of times, starting last Thursday. Yeah, I’m crap at checking PMs, but that’s really no excuse: had I checked them, I’d have been on the ball, instead of just noticing this today. My bad. You can configure the board to give you a pop-up every time you get a PM. Depending on how many PMs you typically receive(and as you don’t check PMs often that’s probably not very many), it can be helpful to avoid missing a PM. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/132 "2010-06-28T16:17:35Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > And now I need to apologize to **Mahaloth**! No problem. I understand. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/133 "2010-06-28T18:32:32Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Right, now that we’re off, I’m going to get on my soapbox for a minute. **storyteller** often makes the point that in these games, town players tend to be overly cautious about sharing the information that they have. I would agree, but only to a point. Town players definitely have a tendency to jealously hoard the information that comes with their Role. But in my experience, they combine that with a rather inexplicable need to share any and all information they get in other ways. A couple of examples from recent games I’ve played in come to mind: > > In Crimson Glyph, whoever the doctor(me) protected got a notification that they “felt a layer of protection around them” or something similar. What drove me crazy in that game was that the people who I protected immediately posted that fact to the main thread. If they’d stayed quiet, any false doctor claim could have been outed because the false-claiming scum probably couldn’t have guessed who had been protected, while the real doctor would have been able to name them all. > > Now, as it happens I was a _scum_ doctor and my power was basically a giant red herring for the town, but the point stands. Sharing that kind of information gave Town no benefit and holding it back could give the Town a great benefit. > In Cecil Pond, one of the masons went on a mass voting spree at one point before he’d claimed. About a Day after he did claim, one of the other town players commented that if the scum were to just eliminate all players that the known masons had voted for and all of the scum, they stood a very good chance of uncovering the last unclaimed mason. People jumped on him for saying that, and his defence was that all the information was out in the open and the scum had probably already worked it out. Now, I was scum in that game. It never occurred to any of us that we could do this(we were rather more worried about a non-existent cop, as it happens). The thing was, even if the scum _had_ figured it out, town got no benefit from that fact being in the open. And sometimes, even if the conclusion seems obvious, the scum will miss it! They aren’t perfect; they’ll miss townie slips just as town players will miss scum slips. > > **So please, I’m asking all of you: if you are in possession of non-public information, think about whether it should be made public. What benefit is there to town to have that information in the open? What benefit is there to scum?** (bolding mine) I’m glad **Rysto** got a meaty discussion happening on Day One, which is a nice change of pace from the usual rigamarole. I think his overall point (bolded) is really spot-on and pretty much indisputable: THINK about what the benefits and drawbacks are to revealing information you might possess before you reveal it. Measure twice, cut once. One of my Mafia flaws is getting worked up and posting emotionally, so this is particularly good advice for me 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/134 "2010-06-28T18:33:31Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > l. > > **Is Day 1 always doomed to come down to a last 24 real world hour segment of discovery / slip / claim and a vote against (using the new information) it?** Typically, yes. That isn’t necessarily bad, though–a good number of times, the slip is really a slip. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/135 "2010-06-28T19:12:13Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Typically, yes. That isn’t necessarily bad, though–a good number of times, the slip is really a slip. And just as frequently, the slip is careless language by a Townie, and the person pointing it out is Scum. I’m not a big fan of the “slip” theory. Very rarely have I seen a true Scum slip. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/136 "2010-06-28T19:31:23Z")
**Unvote Shadowfacts** Wasn’t a serious vote anyway, obviously. Actually, I do think I have an idea how to form suspicions in day 0, but it’s not a very good one. In particular, how do you tell the difference between someone that’s lurking because they’re scum laying low from someone that has a power role they’re trying to decide how to use, from someone that just has been too busy to post? I am going to laugh when people cluster up into ‘share info’ and ‘hoard info’ factions that have nothing to do with town/scum. And just so that I have an active vote in case I drop dead for a week: **Vote tiltawhirl** Again, just prodding the not-yet-active. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/137 "2010-06-28T19:44:18Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > And just as frequently, the slip is careless language by a Townie, and the person pointing it out is Scum. I’m not a big fan of the “slip” theory. Very rarely have I seen a true Scum slip. What’s very rare? Or alternatively, what’s “true scum slip” mean? I think it happens once a game or thereabouts that a scum player carelessly says something that reveals a non-town perspective on the game. I apologize if I’m misremembering, but I also think that you were among those who discounted **Tom Scud’s** “overnight thread” in the last game, which by my estimation was certainly a “true scum slip.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/138 "2010-06-28T19:45:50Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > And just as frequently, the slip is careless language by a Townie, and the person pointing it out is Scum. I’m not a big fan of the “slip” theory. Very rarely have I seen a true Scum slip. Do we REALLY have to trot out examples of how often the scum actually slips up? Really? Every game? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/139 "2010-06-28T20:23:52Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > And just so that I have an active vote in case I drop dead for a week: > **Vote tiltawhirl** (bleached) Care to give more info about this? Because from where I sit, this is a horrible justification for a vote. Lets examine it closer: 1. You are voting for someone who is not participating (albeit, yet). 2. You are doing this so that at some point if you cease participation you will still have a vote. 3. You are placing a vote of zero accountability. So if/when your vote matters in a close lynch, you cannot possibly be blamed since you just placed your vote based on absence and then disappeared. How is this scummy/ What’s the scum motivation? Leaves you off the “Did not vote” list while making a vote of no accountability. Yeah, well, it’s still early in the day on day 1. But rubbish voting is rubbish voting, no matter what part of what day you do it on. **vote Chipacabra** ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429/140 "2010-06-28T20:32:16Z")
The comment about dropping dead was a joke, really. Defending myself: 1. My vote is pretty much entirely designed to encourage participation. In the games I’ve seen, one of the strongest scum moves is just shut the hell up and stay under the radar while town tears itself down. I don’t want to allow that. 2. At this stage of the game, everyone is under equal suspicion. (Including me, so I don’t take your vote personally.) I don’t expect to vanish. I have lots of free time, and no plans for the immediate future. But even if somehow my internet shuts off or something, I want to have SOMETHING out there to get a paper trail going, both for myself and for all the random people I point at until then. 3. This would be true if I actually do vanish, which I don’t intend to. So, I guess I’m locked into staying active this day, which I intended to do. Is it really that off base to just poke around with random votes early in day 1 and see what shakes loose? There’s still lots of time for me to change when someone actually does do something suspicious. If I were doing this later in the day, I could understand your objection, but why do you think that, at this stage of the day, a random vote is scummier than no vote? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-mafia/544429.md?page=8)