# Harry Potter Plot Hole **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 29, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465 "2012-05-29T18:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/41 "2012-05-30T05:01:48Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Are you positive it’s only about muggles noticing her? Other wizards readily recognizing Hedwig is a decided problem late in the series. Without going back and looking, I want to say that Harry was warned that because Hedwig isn’t a native owl, Muggles would notice if she was seen in a given area on a regular basis, and maybe remark on it – and THAT would draw the attention of unfriendly wizards. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/42 "2012-05-30T05:04:14Z")
> [@J\_Cubed](#): > > You need to read this: > [http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry\_Potter\_and\_the\_Methods\_of\_Rationality](http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality) > > In the fourth chapter, Harry figures out how to arbitrage the difference in the relative valuation of gold and silver between the wizarding and muggle worlds. Wow, there have been a LOT of new chapters added since I last visited this fan fic! The last one I’ve read was the one right after the last “Self-Actualization” chapter. I’ve got some reading to do – thanks for posting this! ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_Cello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Clark\_Cello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_Cello)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/43 "2012-05-30T12:51:48Z")
Owl post is opt in, not opt out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/44 "2012-05-30T14:09:38Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Plot hole? As in singular? There are so many plot holes in the books that it’s best not to think of them in the context of the story. They could be valuable logic lessons to discuss with your kids when they bring them to you. but if you’re going to discuss Sirrius Black, then the biggest one associated with him was his own conviction. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 plot holes: 1) They have the ability to look at the last spell given from a wand which would have exonerated his supposed execution of Worm Tail. 2) They have Veritaserum which would force him to admit to the crime. 3) they can go back in time with a time turner and view the crime to see who did it. 4) he can extract his memories for them to look at. The problem with a story involving magic is that each spell is like a chess piece and the use of them creates exponentially different possible outcomes which leads to ever greater numbers of plot holes. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/45 "2012-05-30T15:16:17Z")
Magiver: > [@](#): > > 1. They have the ability to look at the last spell given from a wand which would have exonerated his supposed execution of Worm Tail. 2) They have Veritaserum which would force him to admit to the crime. 3) they can go back in time with a time turner and view the crime to see who did it. 4) he can extract his memories for them to look at. Clearly, the Ministry of Magic has some form of due process which makes these methods unusable by the authorities. The trial scenes in the Penseive in book 4, as well as Harry’s own hearing in book 5 don’t use any of the methods you listed, so the same would presumably have been true for Sirius’s trial. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/46 "2012-05-30T17:05:17Z")
Srius did not have a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/47 "2012-05-30T17:17:40Z")
I think they should just have done “Accio Sirius Black” If they wanted him dead, they should have had 4 aurors at remote locations of the globe at a synchronized time all say “Accio Sirius Black!” Of course, Voldemort should have just said “Accio Prophecy” and avoided a bunch of difficulty as well. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/48 "2012-05-30T17:21:56Z")
How can I tell if my firewall is owl proof? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/49 "2012-05-30T17:24:19Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > I’m reading the Harry Potter books to my daughter, and something has been weighing on my mind ever since _The Prisoner of Azkaban._ Stay with me here. > > The most common way of sending messages in the wizarding world is via owl post. The magical owls employed for this purpose are able to magically find the receipient of the message they carry, no matter where they are in the world and whether or not the sender of the message knows where the recipient is. > > Owl post is not, however, magically secure. Characters in the books frequently worry about owls being intercepted and censor their own messages in case they should fall into the wrong hands. This, along with occasionally long delays before an owl returns to its owner, suggests that the post owls simply fly from the sender to the recipient, without teleporting or anything. > > Given the above, and considering the immense pressure being brought on the authorities to catch Azkaban escapee Sirius Black, why didn’t some Auror ever say, “You know what we should do? **We should send Black a letter by owl post, and then follow the owl right to Black’s location.** ” > > Am I missing something? Can anyone come up with a plausible, in-canon explanation why this wouldn’t work? Because…SHUT UP! ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/50 "2012-05-30T17:56:06Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > I could argue that wizards might have been a little apprehensive about walking into the lion’s den when Voldemort was in power Yeah, the heck with confronting Voldemort face-to-face. Just inscribe a Symbol of Death on a note and owl-post it to Voldy. Or if that won’t work, have Mr. Weasley owl-post him a Muggle hand grenade. edit: Remember that scene in the first book, where hundreds of owls arrive all at once with Harry’s invitation to Hogwarts, bombarding the Dursleys? Do THAT to Voldemort with hand grenades. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/51 "2012-05-30T18:48:09Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Yeah, the heck with confronting Voldemort face-to-face. Just inscribe a Symbol of Death on a note and owl-post it to Voldy. Or if that won’t work, have Mr. Weasley owl-post him a Muggle hand grenade. > > edit: Remember that scene in the first book, where hundreds of owls arrive all at once with Harry’s invitation to Hogwarts, bombarding the Dursleys? Do THAT to Voldemort with hand grenades. I like the cut of your jib, sir! Edited to add hysterical laughter after noticing your user name. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/52 "2012-05-31T03:57:50Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Magiver: > > Clearly, the Ministry of Magic has some form of due process which makes these methods unusable by the authorities. The trial scenes in the Penseive in book 4, as well as Harry’s own hearing in book 5 don’t use any of the methods you listed, so the same would presumably have been true for Sirius’s trial. Thing is, the reason in the real world that things are considered not a part of due process is that they don’t work, or have a greater downside than good side. For example, polygraphs are not acceptable because they are so easy to fool. Allowing the avoidance of self-incrimination is allowed to prevent someone from being coerced into a false confession, as well as to create more confidence in the justice system. What arguments do you make that the above mentioned techniques have similar problems? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/53 "2012-05-31T07:05:18Z")
BigT: > [@](#): > > What arguments do you make that the above mentioned techniques have similar problems? Veritaserum is known to have antidotes, which those who are prepared will likely take. Time-turners can cause problems if not used carefully enough. Memories can be altered by magical means. Even without all these, it’s possible that some degree of wizarding law pre-dates certain advances in magic, and wizards are loath to give up their personal rights even if they feel the new innovations are no danger to them. As I recall, we in modern times don’t think too highly of the “If you’re not a criminal you have nothing to fear” rationale for certain expansions of police power into realms currently considered free. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/54 "2012-05-31T07:09:57Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Yeah, the heck with confronting Voldemort face-to-face. Just inscribe a Symbol of Death on a note and owl-post it to Voldy. Or if that won’t work, have Mr. Weasley owl-post him a Muggle hand grenade. Dear Lord Voldemort, I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. Yours, Vaarsuvius ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/55 "2012-05-31T09:05:36Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > BigT: > > Veritaserum is known to have antidotes, which those who are prepared will likely take. Time-turners can cause problems if not used carefully enough. Memories can be altered by magical means. > > Even without all these, it’s possible that some degree of wizarding law pre-dates certain advances in magic, and wizards are loath to give up their personal rights even if they feel the new innovations are no danger to them. As I recall, we in modern times don’t think too highly of the “If you’re not a criminal you have nothing to fear” rationale for certain expansions of police power into realms currently considered free. I never could find a way out of those gaping plot holes. I’m pretty sure that’s when the Guild fell off the Lily for me books-wise. You can wave your rights to due process at any point if you think doing so will help you. The MoM has such tight rules because “fuck you, we don’t care if you’re innocent or have a valid defence”? So an accused can offer to go through xyz (insert all sorts of scenarios here that are better than sitting in a jail cell with comically inept (when they need to be) dementors for years on end, but the MoM falls back to “your guilty anyway, because fuck you, that’s why.” They give some prepubescent chick a souped-up Delorian but trained cops can’t use them to investigate crimes? I’ve read all the books a couple times (used to re-read them before the movies came out up through five or six), so it’s not like I’m against the series in general. But that series of holes was irreparable and made the plots far secondary to the fun world in general. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/56 "2012-05-31T11:31:57Z")
It may be that it is possible to fake all those possibilities for evidence, undetectibly, and thus they are not admitted in trials. I agree, Rowling tells a good story, but she doesn’t build a consistent world. Devices or spells appear in one book for one purpose, and then vanish from thought. The time-travel gimmick, for instance, would seem to be something that would have been VERY handy for both good guys and bad guys in the later books: like stopping Dumbledore’s death? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/57 "2012-05-31T12:05:20Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > I agree, Rowling tells a good story, but she doesn’t build a consistent world. Devices or spells appear in one book for one purpose, and then vanish from thought. The time-travel gimmick, for instance, would seem to be something that would have been VERY handy for both good guys and bad guys in the later books: like stopping Dumbledore’s death? I feel bad for knowing this, but it’s briefly mentioned that they all got smashed during the fight at the Ministry in whatever book it was (Order of the Phoenix?). A convenient excuse but at least there was one. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I’ve come to the conclusion that they teleport (or apparate, if you’d prefer). So you grab your owl, chuck him out the window and he flies out of sight, then POOF, appears out-of-sight of the target and completes the trip. Just remember to [rotate it first](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBpF_Zj4OA). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/58 "2012-05-31T12:19:39Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > It may be that it is possible to fake all those possibilities for evidence, undetectibly, and thus they are not admitted in trials. > > I agree, Rowling tells a good story, but she doesn’t build a consistent world. Devices or spells appear in one book for one purpose, and then vanish from thought. The time-travel gimmick, for instance, would seem to be something that would have been VERY handy for both good guys and bad guys in the later books: like stopping Dumbledore’s death? Admittedly, this is a weak defense, but it’s very traditional throughout fantasy and folklore for “magic” to work according to arbitrary and capricious rules. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/59 "2012-05-31T12:27:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I feel bad for knowing this, but it’s briefly mentioned that they all got smashed during the fight at the Ministry in whatever book it was (Order of the Phoenix?). A convenient excuse but at least there was one. > > Just remember to [rotate it first](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBpF_Zj4OA). 😃 Someone made the first ones. It really isn’t much of an excuse. If anything, the excuse just points to the lack of consistent world building. “oh, noes! they all got smashed” - well, how did the ones that were there come into existence? ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/60 "2012-05-31T12:34:38Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Someone made the first ones. It really isn’t much of an excuse. If anything, the excuse just points to the lack of consistent world building. “oh, noes! they all got smashed” - well, how did the ones that were there come into existence? Maybe by the time of the books, they _hadn’t_ been made yet - just taken from wizards travelling from the time when they _had_. As to the owls - maybe Sirius set up an owl relay, so Hedwig would take a letter to Owl 1, who then took it to Owl 2, and so on. Each owl would only know the location of the next owl in the chain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465.md?page=4)