# Harry Potter Plot Hole **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 29, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465 "2012-05-29T18:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/61 "2012-05-31T12:35:02Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Someone made the first ones. It really isn’t much of an excuse. If anything, the excuse just points to the lack of consistent world building. “oh, noes! they all got smashed” - well, how did the ones that were there come into existence? I doubt they’re quick and easy to make or else everyone would have one, and if the Ministry is the main source of them you may recall the Ministry was having issues of its own by book 6. A better example is the Felix whatsit potion that makes you lucky - Slughorn has a whole cauldron full of the stuff at the beginning of book 6, of which Harry only uses a tiny amount. What happened to the rest of it? That stuff would have been mighty handy for dealing with their problems. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/62 "2012-05-31T12:45:58Z")
Didn’t they drink it all at the end of HBP to protect themselves from the Death Eaters? No reason they couldn’t have brewed more, I guess. Maybe wizards have the same attitude towards potions as I do in RPGs - I never drink them because I might need them more later. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/63 "2012-05-31T14:03:51Z")
Wasn’t Hermoine’s time-turner limited to an hour? Was there any suggestion that other time-turners go back even further? If not, then there’s an answer: you can’t use it unless you get one to the crime scene within an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/64 "2012-05-31T14:05:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wasn’t Hermoine’s time-turner limited to an hour? Was there any suggestion that other time-turners go back even further? > > If not, then there’s an answer: you can’t use it unless you get one to the crime scene within an hour. I think they go back three hours in the end, but there’s no suggestion of a technical limit. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/65 "2012-05-31T14:30:58Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Someone made the first ones. It really isn’t much of an excuse. If anything, the excuse just points to the lack of consistent world building. “oh, noes! they all got smashed” - well, how did the ones that were there come into existence? Maybe someone made the _only_ ones. We know that Snape invented some sort of nasty bleeding spell that he apparently didn’t share, IIRC. Possibly Janus Clocksmith figured out how to create them, made a few, and died before sharing the secret. The Ministry would have been quite interested in gathering them up to prevent mischief. That potential rarity makes it less likely that Hermione would get one to take a couple of extra classes, of course. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/66 "2012-05-31T17:15:53Z")
I suppose that would have to be the difference between magic and technology: magic can’t be reverse-engineered. Given a real-world time machine built with modern technology, a team of engineers and physicists could figure out how it worked and build more, even if the inventor was dead and all his notes were gone. Just knowing that something is possible is a huge help when trying to reproduce it yourself. Observing an invention in use gives great hints to someone who knows what to look for as to how it works. Apparently, this isn’t true of magic - it seems to be impossible to take a device like the Time-turner and figure out how to build your own merely by examining it. There’s also remarkably little mass-production for things other than fairly trivial charms shown. It’s as if only Steve Jobs could make iphones, and once he died the secret of how to make them died with him. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/67 "2012-05-31T17:28:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wasn’t Hermoine’s time-turner limited to an hour? Was there any suggestion that other time-turners go back even further? > > If not, then there’s an answer: you can’t use it unless you get one to the crime scene within an hour. I seem to recall that how far back you go is determined by the number of times you flip it, so if you attach it to, say, a power drill, you should be good to go back to the Jurassic. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/68 "2012-05-31T17:31:56Z")
If they used a power drill you’d end up with even more plot holes. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/69 "2012-05-31T18:07:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wasn’t Hermoine’s time-turner limited to an hour? Was there any suggestion that other time-turners go back even further? > > If not, then there’s an answer: you can’t use it unless you get one to the crime scene within an hour. It is, and so she flips it three times to go back three hours. As noted, there’s no issue there, nor do we have any reason to believe that all Time-Turners are calibrated for one hour increments. Indeed, it stands to reason that the Ministry would issue Hermione a small one; it’s all she needs for her lessons. And besides, weren’t the authorities on the crime scene inside of an hour? Black was still cackling when they got there, wasn’t he? With respect to the _Priori Incantatem_\* spell, all it proves is the last spells (or maybe last few spells) cast by a particular wand. It gives no clue as to who cast the spell, as Winky learned in _Goblet of Fire_. Memories can be altered by magical means. All Veritaserum demonstrates is what the subject believes to be true, and as noted, memories can be altered by magical means. And maybe most damning, the MoM in Britain is a little fascist. We really see few or no trials in which anyone really tries to ascertain guilt or innocence; rather, we see a bunch of show trials in which the whole court has already made up their minds about the outcome. If they didn’t already know if the person was guilty or innocent (often for political reasons) the trial didn’t happen. \*It’s bad enough that I remember that off the top of my head. I refuse to actually look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/70 "2012-06-01T03:32:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Thing is, the reason in the real world that things are considered not a part of due process is that they don’t work, or have a greater downside than good side. For example, polygraphs are not acceptable because they are so easy to fool. Allowing the avoidance of self-incrimination is allowed to prevent someone from being coerced into a false confession, as well as to create more confidence in the justice system. > > What arguments do you make that the above mentioned techniques have similar problems? It doesn’t appear to be up anymore, but JK Rowling’s official website used to have a section where she answered questions from fans. One was about the use of Veritaserum, etc., in trials, and she said that these methods only carried about as much weight as polygraph testing does in the real world. A sufficiently prepared, skilled wizard could manage to keep his secrets. We know from the books that it’s possible to tamper with memories viewed using the Pensieve (Prof. Slughorn did it), that it’s possible to shield one’s thoughts from mind-readers (Snape was very good at this), and that it’s even possible to magically wipe memories (Gilderoy Lockheart did it repeatedly). IIRC it was specifically mentioned that Veritaserum wouldn’t force someone to reveal a secret that was protected by the Fidelius charm, and there may have been other magical ways around it as well. There were certainly non-magical ways – in _Order of the Phoenix_ Snape administers a different potion to a student and just tells Umbridge it was Veritaserum. But more importantly: > [@appleciders](#): > > And maybe most damning, the MoM in Britain is a little fascist. We really see few or no trials in which anyone really tries to ascertain guilt or innocence; rather, we see a bunch of show trials in which the whole court has already made up their minds about the outcome. If they didn’t already know if the person was guilty or innocent (often for political reasons) the trial didn’t happen. This. We’ve had threads here before asking why the wizard justice system doesn’t use Veritaserum, etc., to establish the truth in trial, but even if these methods were more effective it’s clear that the wizard government is not always interested in the truth. This isn’t a plot hole, it’s a significant part of the plot across the series that the government is often at best incompetent. Many officials are corrupt, prejudiced, or basically fascists. I don’t remember the specific details of the trial scenes that well, but unless it’s explicitly stated in the books I don’t think we can assume that defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty, have the right to an attorney, etc. This is a government that tortured convicts, after all. Did Sirius Black even _have_ a trial, or was he just thrown into Azkaban? Even with a fair legal system it probably would have been pretty easy to convict him, though. There would have been no need for the prosecution to use Veritaserum to get a confession. If Black offered to take the potion to add weight to his testimony, it would be assumed that he was only making the offer because he was confident he could beat it. Using a Time Turner seems a lot more trouble than it would be worth, as 1) there were already witnesses to Peter Pettigrew’s “murder” and 2) going back farther to verify who betrayed the Potters would mean going back to a time before Voldemort was defeated. Although the third book indicates that time travel cannot be used to alter the past, this doesn’t seem like the best scenario for putting that to the test. And there’d be no paradox if the time traveler would up being killed or cursed by Voldemort or the Death Eaters. Really I can’t see even the most gung-ho defense attorney feeling it was worth the risk, even if s/he’d been convinced of Black’s innocence…and remember that Lupin, his closest living friend, didn’t believe he was innocent at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/71 "2012-06-01T17:59:53Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Magiver: > > Clearly, the Ministry of Magic has some form of due process which makes these methods unusable by the authorities. The trial scenes in the Penseive in book 4, as well as Harry’s own hearing in book 5 don’t use any of the methods you listed, so the same would presumably have been true for Sirius’s trial. Actually no, there is no due process. Hagrid was taken directly to jail without a trial and it was inferred that Stan Shunpike was railroaded into prison. And I left off another plot hole. They have the ability to read minds. And as far as the truth serum is concerned, even He Who Must Not Be Named couldn’t fight 3 drops of the drug. The books are so full of plot holes I could right another book on them. That’s just a function of using magic and time travel in a story. You can’t escape them. It’s best to enjoy them for what they are and not let logic get in the way of a bit of fantasy. I enjoyed reading the stories as well as the movies because they allowed me to study screenplays. It was fun to see how a story can be truncated and rearranged with destroying it. I think the screenplays were brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/72 "2012-06-01T18:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Folacin** : > > Maybe someone made the only ones. We know that Snape invented some sort of nasty bleeding spell that he apparently didn’t share, IIRC. One of the other Death Eaters used that same spell during the battle at the Ministry. Harry just didn’t know that it was the same spell, when he used it. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/73 "2012-06-01T20:21:15Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > So that just leaves the Fidelius Charm and whatever charms Hermione was using during the Endless Camping Trip of Incredible Boredom during book 7. By the time of the last movie, Hermione’s charms were considerable! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/74 "2012-06-01T21:58:57Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > The most common way of sending messages in the wizarding world is via owl post. The magical owls employed for this purpose are able to magically find the receipient of the message they carry, no matter where they are in the world and whether or not the sender of the message knows where the recipient is. The underlined appears to be an assumption. Do we really have that demonstrated in the text? The way I see it, you typically employ an owl who already knows where the person is, or I presume the owl flies to some distribution center to find out where that person is. Hedwig is described as flying off for long periods of time and coming back exhausted, so it does not appear that the owls teleport or otherwise magically transport, but rather they actually fly wherever they go. > [@](#): > > Given the above, and considering the immense pressure being brought on the authorities to catch Azkaban escapee Sirius Black, why didn’t some Auror ever say, “You know what we should do? **We should send Black a letter by owl post, and then follow the owl right to Black’s location.** ” If the owl didn’t already know Sirius Black’s location, it wouldn’t be able to find him. Either Hedwig or Harry know some trick of how to get messages to Sirius. Maybe it’s a “go to location X, read note, proceed to location Y” kinda thing. > [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > Still, if I were an Auror, I would have at least suggested the attempt. Here’s Harry and Hermione insisting to Fudge and Snape that Sirius is innocent. Shortly after that, Sirius escapes under very suspicious circumstances. Snape clearly suspects Harry of being involved. Why not keep a beady eye out for Harry to send Hedwig to deliver a message and then follow HER (or even put some kind of magical trace on her so you’ll know when she goes anywhere)? That would be sensible, likely another reason why Sirius instructed Harry not to use Hedwig. “Dammit, why can’t we be as smart as these readers! _We_ should have thought of that first!” > [@Chronos](#): > > Plus, I suspect that most of the owl interceptions were very close to one of the endpoints. It’s a lot easier to monitor, say, all of the owls coming into or out of Hogwarts than it is to do so for all the owls in the British Isles. Yep. > [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > As to the owls - maybe Sirius set up an owl relay, so Hedwig would take a letter to Owl 1, who then took it to Owl 2, and so on. Each owl would only know the location of the next owl in the chain. You see, it just takes someone else to outthink the problem. Maybe the Ministry did try tracking owls, but Sirius had already outwitted them. > [@Folacin](#): > > That potential rarity makes it less likely that Hermione would get one to take a couple of extra classes, of course. But, she’s _Hermione_, the best witch of her age! Of course she deserves a time turner merely to take extra classes, and totally not to use for any other reason. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/75 "2012-06-01T23:30:51Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > As to the owls - maybe Sirius set up an owl relay, so Hedwig would take a letter to Owl 1, who then took it to Owl 2, and so on. Each owl would only know the location of the next owl in the chain. Bravo, sir. You just combined Chaum’s Mix Network with RFC 1149. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465/76 "2012-06-02T02:11:36Z")
One thing to keep in mind is that the MoM is not really that effective as a government body. They operate at about the level of a municipal government (and, indeed, all the “citizens” they govern are probably only equal to the population of a large town/small city). When Voldemort was in power, he wasn’t a crime lord–he was a warlord. If the cops have a warrant on someone like Al Capone and knew where he was, there is no doubting the outcome–Capone loses. Not so with the MoM and Voldemort. It wasn’t a matter of, “if we can FIND Voldemort, we can stop him!” The whole of the MoM was not powerful enough to stop him. He died by mischance. You would expect an effective government to have an effective law enforcement/military. The MoM does not. As a result, many of their other law enforcement/governance failures are not hard to understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-plot-hole/623465.md?page=3)