# Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix (Major Spoilers!!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418 "2003-06-21T14:52:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/181 "2003-06-26T04:37:01Z")
I definately felt for Sirus, the person, but his actual death was odd. No dead face, no body. And the scene quickly moved elsewhere, though it was still on Harry’s mind. But I agree: Sirus was what promised to be Harry’s new father figure when this was all over: the connection to his parents that he had lost. And he was a decent, brave guy (at least in his older age), who may have been impatient, but was at least on Harry’s side and willing to talk straight to him. Very sad to lose him. > [@](#): > > Yeah who’s “everyone” here? Like I said it may be clear to readers but it’s not to the characters themselves. I don’t remember anything to suggest that Harry or his friends believe that there will be an inevitable showdown with Voldermort where one of them dies. Everyone who constantly talks about Harry facing off with Voldemort, again and again. I still don’t get why the blood thing still protects Harry when, in GoF Voldemort explicitly says that he’s beaten that particular wrinkle. (Ironically, just as Harry has become like Voldy in taking his powers, Voldy has become more like Harry in using Potter blood to revive his body!) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/182 "2003-06-26T05:02:08Z")
My understanding was that before the GoF thingy, Voldemort couldn’t attack Harry _at all_. Remember the end of the first book, where, IIRC, Fetusmort tried to touch Harry and was destroyed. At the end of this book, Dumbledore says that the blood protects him _at the Dursley’s_ only. So he’s lost quite a bit of protection, but there’s still some there. The difference is that now he can be attacked when he’s not under his aunt’s protection. I think. ---
**Author:** ![sotally\_tober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@sotally\_tober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sotally_tober)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/183 "2003-06-26T05:37:33Z")
IIRC, Harry’s protection was very specific. And it extended only to him against the Dark Lord, not to other Death Eaters. But why would Voldemort want to do the dirty work himself? If he can’t attack Harry, just get one of his underlings to do the job… ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/184 "2003-06-26T11:39:58Z")
I still can’t figure out why Dumbledore had a look of trumiph on his face when he realized that Voldemort could touch Harry (from the Goblet of Fire, around the pentultimate chapter). Anyone get it? ---
**Author:** ![AmericanMaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@AmericanMaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmericanMaid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/185 "2003-06-26T13:20:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I still can’t figure out why Dumbledore had a look of trumiph on his face when he realized that Voldemort could touch Harry (from the Goblet of Fire, around the pentultimate chapter). Anyone get it? I think I get it because it’s a two way street. Voldemort can kill Harry and now Harry can kill Voldemort. Just like the Prophecy, Voldemort sealed his and Harry’s fate by his own actions. I completely understand why Dumbledore never told Harry about the Prophecy. #1 He loved the boy and #2 he knew what the knowledge would do to Harry. Imagine knowing at the age of 11 that you’ll end up being a murderer or victim? That would severely impact your decisions, and your interactions with people. At 15 with the knowledge, Harry distances himself from people and feels disconnected from life. Growing up with that knowledge would have hindered Harry. He might not have made friends at all let alone with Hermione or Ron. He might have done through a “Why bother?” phase or become completely fatalistic. The only good the knowledge might have done is compelled Harry to buckle down and learn his magic. Basically become Snape. Hmm… now I have a Snape theory! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/186 "2003-06-26T13:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > At the end of this book, Dumbledore says that the blood protects him at the Dursley’s only. No. Dumbledore says that going to live at the Dursley’s renews his protection for another year. He doesn’t have to live there all year, or all summer. It just has to be considered his home at some point during the year. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/187 "2003-06-26T14:11:22Z")
I noticed - and no one else has said this yet - that Dudley and Harry sort of swapped positions. Dudley, for that he is quite immature and sort of a jerk, is actually out improving himself, working on his physique. He may be causing some hell, but its not particularly serious. Moreover, he’s trying to stay in control of himself. Harry, on the other hand, is swaggering about threatening Dudley with magical punishment more or less for hs own amusement - to satisfy his own irritation. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/188 "2003-06-26T14:34:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sotally tober \* > \*\*But why would Voldemort want to do the dirty work himself? If he can’t attack Harry, just get one of his underlings to do the job… \*\* You are He Who Must Not Be Named. Do you really want one of your underlings saying “I killed Harry Potter when the Dark Lord could not” ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/189 "2003-06-26T15:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\*No. Dumbledore says that going to live at the Dursley’s renews his protection for another year. He doesn’t have to live there all year, or all summer. It just has to be considered his home at some point during the year. \*\* Actually, I was thinking about that. I think Dudley only controls himself around his parents and Harry. And isn’t it funny how terrible Harry felt at how his dad and Sirius treated Snape, when he was doing about the same thing to Dudley? ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/190 "2003-06-26T18:10:31Z")
Just read it 🙂 Posting without having read the whole thread so that my thoughts are fresh in my mind. Hope noone minds, I am sure to be repeating stuff. - I now visualise a “Mad-eye Moody in Muggle-Mufti” as an older Alex from Clockwork Orange. The rakishly tilted bowler did it. - Was there not an awful lot of puking in the book? - Does anyone elses copy of the book have Sirius saying he had caught the house-elf “snogging” a pair of his fathers old trousers? I find that a really weird image, hogging maybe, but actually snogging? ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/191 "2003-06-26T18:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > And isn’t it funny how terrible Harry felt at how his dad and Sirius treated Snape, when he was doing about the same thing to Dudley? Yeah – that was one of the things I absolutely loved about Rowling’s treatment of bullying, because it’s so true to life. Most kids _will_ make excuses for their own acts of cruelty, even if they see the damage caused by others in similar circumstances. And most kids who have been bullied will turn around and do it to another kid, whether it’s their own tormentor (like Harry) or someone they come across much later who looks suitably victim-like (like Snape). I also think her portrait of young Lupin is particularly on target; being a werewolf, he’s well aware that he owes his _own_ social acceptance to Sirius and James, so he can’t risk speaking out. Pettigrew, of course, is in a similar social position but made of different stuff. I do hope one of the future books features a confrontation between Wormtail and Lupin – and that we get to see the Dudley / Harry relationship from Dudley’s perspective. Like Harry, I’m dying to know what Dudley sees when the dementors come after him. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/192 "2003-06-26T19:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Was there not an awful lot of puking in the book? I disagree: there was no nearly enough puking. There were several times in which Harry either could have been puking or at least feeling as if he was about to puke. ---
**Author:** ![sv\_87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@sv\_87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sv_87)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/193 "2003-06-26T19:05:34Z")
Hey newbie here, first post and all, and just finished the book an hour ago. ``` I thought it was fantastic! Better than GoF and PoA. I think JK Rowling really knows how to write suspense, I mean the first few chapters are torture, everything seems completely different, and no one seems to want to explains what's going on to Harry etc. Seems in this book we finally got alot of the characters to do some cool stuff. Favorite moments include ``` 1)Fred and George unleashed, we see how they’ve been holding back all these years 2)The whole Dumbledore leaving the school _in style!_ (I can’t beleived this wasn’t mentioned more often) 1. Snapes’s memory, just great, I actuially empathized with Snape 2. Proffesor McGonagall and Peeves 3. Hagrid versus the ministry , (I though another great scene was when Umbridge was making fun of Hagrid, and the Slytherins were saying how he grunted etc. Really made you feel sorry for the guy.) 4. Anything with the DA and Umbridge Everyone was just so much cooler in this book, Neville, Harry trashing Dumbledores office (that was fantastic), Ginny etc. Things I didn’t like- Malfoy, same old, same old, and I’d say JK Rowling’s biggest weaknesses are anticlimatc endings, like when Hagrid came back from Azkaban, or when Rita Skeeter got caught she just sort of rushed through them. In this book we have Dumbledores speech etc, and I wanted more Umbridge bashing. Wow, didn’t mean to write this much, anyway, I’d still say it was the best of all the books, although I don’t know how I’ll feed when I rereading it as alot of the surprises is what made it so good. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/194 "2003-06-26T21:04:37Z")
Just finished _HPV_, and I really liked it, though I have some problems with it. I still think that in terms of crafting of subject matter, and execution _Prisoner of Azkaban_ is the best book of the series, but in _Order of the Phoenix_, I really think that Rowling excels at humor and some character development and really needs to work on developing action and tying up loose ends. My favorite part was when Hagrid introduces Harry and Hermione to Grawpy, and Harry notes to Hermione on p. 694: “Kind of makes you wish we had Norbert back, doesn’t it?” 😃 Umbridge was brilliantly creepy, and what was really interesting about her was how the other teachers and students reacted to her. I wish we could have seen Ron’s triumphant game of Quidditch, but okay, that would have detracted from the hilarious scene with Grawpy. I _love_ Luna. She reminds me of me. 😃 I didn’t like the way that Rowling just let Harry gloss over Luna’s cryptic comment about how she and Harry both heard voices behind the veil. Why didn’t Harry ask her to explain what she meant by that? Dumbledore got on my _last_ nerve in this book, particularly at the end. I mean that line where Harry and Neville see that Dumbledore had come to the rescue and that meant that “they were saved” pure like to set me in a fit of the giggles. I felt like it was said so sarcastically, or it could have just been my own impression so tired was I with that _tedious_ section of them dueling it out in the Ministry’s section of Mysteries. But particularly at the end when Dumbledore really doesn’t tell Harry anything new and doesn’t really comfort the child who’s lost so much by saying that he wanted to spare him more suffering. Why couldn’t he realize that you can’t successfully manipulate folks, and that people respond better if they have the information to make an intelligent decision about things. Why couldn’t he just tell Harry _why_ it was so important for him to learn Occlumency, or what was the secret weapon in the Ministry of Mysteries? I understand it’s a very human, parent-like thing to want to spare a child suffering, but Harry has shown again and again that he can handle it. Dumbledore’s actions and his reasons for acting are _very_ poorly developed in this book. ---
**Author:** ![Zen\_Postman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4da419/32.png) [@Zen\_Postman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zen_Postman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/195 "2003-06-26T23:34:12Z")
From AE Houseman’s “To an Athlete Dying Young” \*The day you won your town the race we chaired you through the marketplace and men and boy stood cheering by as home we brought you shoulder high… ``` and hold to the low lintel up the still defended challenge cup* ``` Read the end of chapter 30 and tell me (if you are familiar with that particular poem) that you don’t think Ron’s going to get it…He even bumps his head on the lintel. She cites Houseman and doesn’t kill Ron. Certainly surprised me. By the way, for those who have endured Robert Jordan: If Harry had peeked through the veil he might have found Moiraine instead of Sirius. Gotta watch those magical doorways. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/196 "2003-06-27T00:21:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > **- I now visualise a “Mad-eye Moody in Muggle-Mufti” as an older Alex from Clockwork Orange. The rakishly tilted bowler did it.** Thank you! I meant to mention that. _Hello, Hagrid, my little droog._ ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Tambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@Mr\_Tambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Tambo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/197 "2003-06-27T00:29:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zen Postman \* > \*\* > By the way, for those who have endured Robert Jordan: > > If Harry had peeked through the veil he might have found Moiraine instead of Sirius. Gotta watch those magical doorways. \*\* The similarity of the two scenes struck me too. And in both cases, I’m suspicious of just how ‘dead’ the characters are I hope HP doesn’t turn as tedious as the Wheel of Time ---
**Author:** ![Spudo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Spudo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spudo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/198 "2003-06-27T00:35:55Z")
I just finished it today and I really enjoyed it. I find J.K Rowling quite adept at writing characters I can really hate. Umbridge is one of he best villians I’ve seen in a while. She’s just too creepy and irritating and ultimately too powerful for anyone to really stop in a normal way. Draco and the Dursleys too, all totally dispicable characters. I like how Neville is turning out to be a bit of an ass-kicker. I’m glad he won’t be a whiny loser the entire series. Everyone in the Order is cool, especially Mad-Eye and his hat. It did feel a bit like Rowling was teasing us every couple of chapterse with near deaths. Everyone was expecting someone to die and she was sort of stringing us along “Maybe it’ll be Arthur Weasly… haha, fooled you, it’s gonna be Hermione…gotcha again!” I wish the next one was out already. ---
**Author:** ![Spudo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Spudo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spudo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/199 "2003-06-27T00:45:05Z")
Oh yeah, forgot to add this. Dumbledore is amazing. The way he smacked everyone around in his office, the way he called Voldemort Tom during their fight, and then again when facing Fudge and the Aurors after the climax “I’ll fight you if I have to… and win again!” ---
**Author:** ![HomeSlice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9d8465/32.png) [@HomeSlice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomeSlice)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/200 "2003-06-27T01:06:07Z")
I might read this thread later, but i have some things to add. Harry is protected by the blood of his family. Whenever in the dwelling of a blood relative, he is protected by an ancient magic. Ron and Hermione will get together - there’s too much sexual tension there. If Harry does end up with someone, it will be Ginny - the parallels b/w Ginny and Lily cannot be ignored. Neville can’t be the one. The one was determined when V tried to kill Harry - that’s why Harry is such a powerful wizard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418.md?page=11)