# Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix (Major Spoilers!!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418 "2003-06-21T14:52:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/261 "2003-06-30T17:07:06Z")
LOL. That’s cruel, **Munch.** ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/262 "2003-06-30T18:03:40Z")
Okay, here’s mine: IIRC, Snape removed _several_ memories into the Pensieve. Three, I think. Didn’t anyone else wonder what he was hiding from Harry? Maybe when he saw in the Pensieve which memory Harry was seeing, he was angry but also frightened that Harry might have picked up something else… Um, isn’t Umbridge guilty of _attempted murder_? Why is she still on the streets? She ordered dementors to kill Harry and admitted as much in front of multiple witnesses. The prophecy being Voldemort’s goal was … dumb. Why not just have one of your boys run in there and knock it off the shelf with a pool cue and then tell you what it had said? The death of Sirius was so trivial I barely noticed it on the first pass (or would have, had I not stumbled across the non-spoiler thread on this board that said who was going to die). Why the hell have a giant floating brain envelop Ron’s head if you’re not going to do anything with it? “By the way, Harry, I never mentioned this because I thought it would be too much for you: You and Voldemort are fated for one to kill the other.” (long pause) “Er, yeah, Dumbledore, I kind of figured that out already.” This was my favorite of the series, by a long shot, all the way up to the ministry battle, which was horribly disappointing. Oh, and Grawp was a really stupid side plot. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/263 "2003-06-30T19:29:06Z")
“Accio brain!” Sorry. My favorite part of the book. Is that bad? 🙂 As far as the whole thing with Dumbledore’s explanation at the end, I think there is, as others have said, a pretty big difference between “There’s this evil guy out there, and we’re all going to stop him. BTW, you will probably play a big part in this” and the way it is, which is, “There are only two possible ends. Either you will murder Voldemort, or he will murder you. End of story.” The first, not such a big deal. The second is. ---
**Author:** ![shelbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@shelbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shelbo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/264 "2003-06-30T20:58:09Z")
First, **Umbridge** will be seen as the most successful Defense Against Dark Arts teachers ever. More of her students passed their OWLs than any other teacher in recent memory! Second, what happened to **Percy Weasley**? He was in Dumbledoor’s office when the SHTF, but was not listed among those that were unconcious on the floor. And then we didn’t hear his name for the rest of the book. And third, it really bugged me that _no one_ told **Harry** that the dreams were being sent by **Voldemort**. Anyone could have told him at least that much! Even **Snape**. “Yes, Harry, it is important for you to take Occlumency lessons, because Dr. V is inserting dreams into your head!” (Would have shortened the book though.) All in all, a great effort! ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/265 "2003-06-30T21:51:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe they don’t consider it because it’s just expected amongst wizard society that they’re slaves. You notice that Hermione is the only one who seems to have any real concern for the liberty of the house elves - even “good” characters like Ron and Harry don’t seem to care that much, and may even view their subservience as just being part of the natural order of things. This is exactly what I thought. They didn’t make it a rule, because no Wizard in their right mind would have would have thought someone wanted to free the house elfs. This also indicates to me that being a wizard (or witch) from two Muggle parents is extremely rare… otherwise, this might have happened before to some one who hadn’t gotten acquainted with it. > [@](#): > > Maybe when he saw in the Pensieve which memory Harry was seeing, he was angry but also frightened that Harry might have picked up something else… Well he had to have seen which memory Harry saw, because if you remember, Harry saw Snape right there NEXT to him in the memory, before he was pulled out. > [@](#): > > Only two students were able to produce coporeal Patronuses (Patroni?) besides Harry, and they did so under supremely optimal conditions. Even Harry says this, only to be shushed by Cho. The true test is whether they’d be able to produce one in the presence of a boggart or to throw off dementors. Of course Hermione doing this is no surprise… she picks up everything. Cho doing it is more shocking… or perhaps she was really, really happy around Harry? ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/266 "2003-06-30T22:56:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cataclysm \* > \*\*And I also wonder about the forms that the Patronus takes for each person. I got a bit confused when Hermione’s was an otter and Cho’s a swan. I was always under the impression that the Patronus should be significant to the person casting it. I.E. James Potter could turn into a stag, and therefore, it stands to reason that Harry things that his father could protect him, therefore, Harry’s stag Patronus. But an OTTER? A SWAN? If I’d had to pick a Patronus for Hermione, I would’ve thought… oh… I don’t know, a whole flock of books flying out to protect her. Afterall, for Hermione, knowledge is power, right? 😉 \*\* I’m an idiot. Until I read this thread I always thought a “stag” was a type of horse. Then again, the book did mention the stag hitting the dementor with its antlers. Yup, I’m an idiot. As for Cho and Hermy’s Patronuses: Cho is pretty, but fragile. A swan is pretty, but fragile. Hermione is a tireless, industrous smart worker who used to have big teeth. An otter is a tireless, industrous smart worker with big teeth. I thought they were perfect matches. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/267 "2003-06-30T23:00:05Z")
Aren’t otters supposed to be very smart and resourceful animals? If so, then Hermione’s otter patronus is appropriate. What about Cho’s swan patronus? Aside from beauty and grace, what qualities does a swan have? Could this be a subtle hint that maybe Cho is superficial? I _really_ want to know what Ron’s and Neville’s patronuses would look like. Maybe Neville’s will be a giant frog. As for Ron, I have no clue whatsoever. Any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/268 "2003-06-30T23:34:07Z")
Posted by **Diceman:** > [@](#): > > I really want to know what Ron’s and Neville’s patronuses would look like. Maybe Neville’s will be a giant frog. As for Ron, I have no clue whatsoever. Any ideas? That’s obvious, **Diceman.** Ron’s patronus would be a weasel! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/269 "2003-07-01T00:02:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > > I still think Neville and Ginny will end up together; there are a number of small indications throughout the book indicating that they’ve got a particular link. > > \*\*Please enumerate! > > And you may very well be right. He did take her to the Yule Ball in book 4, which is where she met Michael Corner, and I hate to think of his just being the “placekeeper”. \*\* On quick re-reading, I found two minor incidents. The first is on the train to Hogwarts, when Harry meets Luna: > [@](#): > > '_You’re_ Harry Potter, ’ she added. > ‘I know I am,’ said Harry. > Neville chuckled. Luna turned her pale eyes on him instead. > ‘And I don’t know who you are.’ > ‘I’m nobody,’ said Neville hurriedly. > ‘No you’re not,’ said Ginny sharply. ‘Neville Longbottom – Luna Lovegood…’ Shortly thereafter, Ginny cleans up Neville’s Stinksap explosion and makes light of it. Near the end, when the Slytherins capture Harry’s crew while he’s in Umbridge’s office: > [@](#): > > 'Got ‘em all,’ said Warrington, shoving Ron roughly forwards into the room. ‘_That_ one,’ he poked a thick finger at Neville, ‘tried to stop me taking _her_,’ he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, ‘so I brought him along too.’ Ginny seems to be the only one who doesn’t think of Neville as incapable or otherwise inferior, and Neville seems to be aware of it. It’s not an unlikely pairing, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/270 "2003-07-01T00:41:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ISiddiqui \* > \*\*(Neville’s parents were already mad, so really who was there to sacrifice themself for him? Granny?). \*\* No they weren’t. It’s mentioned in The Goblet of Fire that the reason that the attack on Neville’s parents was so startling to people, and the reason the LaStranges got such severe sentences, was that Voldemort had already been defeated when it happened, and people had thought they were safe. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/271 "2003-07-01T01:25:55Z")
Well, I’ve got a question that’s not specific to Book 5, but rather than starting a new thread, I thought I’d toss it out here. Hermione & the Creevey Bros. are all muggle born and had no knowledge of the wizarding world until they got their letters. Hagrid showed up to take Harry to Diagon Alley, but how did those from 2 muggle families know where or how to go buy school supplies? Yes, it’s a minor thing but something that bugs me. Maybe there was some extra information in the letter they got telling them where to go to get supplies. **shelbo** , I think Percy is going to struggle with swallowing his pride and admitting that he was wrong to his family. I think he’s going to be a source of problems in the next book and I think he will likely be a death. Neville & the gum wrapper: I think there’s a meaning there, but it’s private and has nothing to do with Voldemort. I would like to see Neville’s parents recover at least somewhat and play even a small role in the next couple of books. But I doubt that it will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Jaade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@Jaade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaade)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/272 "2003-07-01T02:20:23Z")
Lsura, I would assume there would have to be a slightly different process for totally Muggle parents. There would have to be something in the letters, and in a normal world, a visit to the school. Perhaps Dumbledore or someone goes to visit them and answers questions they MUST have. ~J ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/273 "2003-07-01T03:34:09Z")
**Lsura’s** observation is what fanfic is made for. But rarely do headmasters have time to travel and woo potential students; they’d be too busy with their educational duties and visits are rarely cost or time-effective for a person in that position. Meeting Dumbledore – if it happens at all – should happen properly at school, in his office. After a succession of tests to screen Muggle reactions to out-of-the ordinary events, a Hogwarts faculty member familiar with Muggles might surreptitiously visit a prospective Muggle student’s home, then take them on on to Hogwarts’ to check it out and to meet faculty, students and perhaps the headmaster. The last thing would be a trip to Diogenes Alley with a responsible guide like Hagrid, or perhaps a prefect or student in good standing. Muggle students and their families must be screened carefully courted carefully, I should think – the Wizarding World, above all else, is a secret one. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/274 "2003-07-01T07:35:11Z")
**shelbo** , IIRC Percy Weasley scurried out of Dumbledore’s office just before the SHTF to copy out Dumbledore’s confession in triplicate and mail it off to the papers. I didn’t really miss him after that, although it would be interesting to know what his reaction was when he found out his precioussss Minisssstry had been engaging in a policy of lies, slander, and disinformation for a year. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/275 "2003-07-01T09:46:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Askia \* > **After a succession of tests to screen Muggle reactions to out-of-the ordinary events, a Hogwarts faculty member familiar with Muggles might surreptitiously visit a prospective Muggle student’s home, then take them on on to Hogwarts’ to check it out and to meet faculty, students and perhaps the headmaster. The last thing would be a trip to Diogenes Alley with a responsible guide like Hagrid, or perhaps a prefect or student in good standing.** Or, perhaps, this is exactly the sort of thing you do in a Muggle Relations job (as mentioned at the Careers Day thingy). There may well be people we haven’t seen whose job it is to meet with parents of Muggle-born wizards to deal with the orientation issues mentioned (not just in relation to Hogwarts, but all the other issues as well). These are more likely to be in the employ of the Ministry than the school, I would think. (And yes, Percy left the room before the shooting started.) ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/276 "2003-07-01T10:52:40Z")
While I’m thinking about it, how did Harry get the Marauder’s Map back? Last I knew, “Professor Moody” had borrowed it in GoF, and I don’t recall that Harry ever got it back. Yet suddenly he’s using it again. And, to change the subject completely, I wonder if Harry is going to get a girl at all. At the end of OotP, he’s sitting by the lake, feeling totally disconnected from everyone, completely weirded out because he now knows that he’s doomed to end up either a murderer or a victim. While he’ll probably be attracted to girls, I don’t see him as the type of guy who would be comfortable getting involved/sharing his life with someone, and having her be the SO of a murderer/corpse. And we already know he has issues with killing, even in cases where it seems perfectly justified to everyone else; remember when he stopped Lupin and Sirius from killing Wormtail in PoA? [paraphrase]“I don’t reckon my dad would have wanted you two to become murderers on account of him.”[/paraphrase] If my theory is correct, then it seems Harry is heading for a distinctly Frodo-ish end; he’ll save the world, but not for him. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/277 "2003-07-01T11:35:26Z")
> [@](#): > > While I’m thinking about it, how did Harry get the Marauder’s Map back? Last I knew, “Professor Moody” had borrowed it in GoF, and I don’t recall that Harry ever got it back. Yet suddenly he’s using it again. Barty Crouch mentioned the map while being interrogated, so we know that Dumbledore and Snape know about it. I assume that Dumbledore confiscated the map, and then secretly gave it back to Harry. It’s the kind of thing he’d do. ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/278 "2003-07-01T17:34:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diceman \* > \*\*I _really_ want to know what Ron’s and Neville’s patronuses would look like. Maybe Neville’s will be a giant frog. As for Ron, I have no clue whatsoever. Any ideas? \*\* Everyone underestimates Neville. I think his would be a lion :). ---
**Author:** ![doc\_miller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@doc\_miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doc_miller)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/279 "2003-07-01T18:49:44Z")
I think I spotted some foreshadowing while re-reading the other night. Fred and George are talking to Harry after watching their replacements at practice. They tell him " We’ve got as much chance of winning the Quidditch cup as Dad has of becoming Minister of Magic" And yet, Gryffindor _does_ win the Quidditch cup, so I think we’ll see Arthur Weasley as MoM at the end of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/280 "2003-07-01T19:08:00Z")
**Askia:** minor nitpick - it’s Diagon Alley, not Diogenes Alley. It’s supposed to suggest “diagonal,” of course - the street that’s on a tangent to the rest of London. Similarly, we have Knockturn Alley, the street where one finds Dark Arts-related stuff… clearly it’s supposed to suggest “nocturnal.” although Diogenes Alley would be an interesting allusion to make too… it would make it a place you go to seek truth or honesty. As for all of the people who’ve commented on the gum wrapper Neville’s mom gave him - if I’ve learned anything after reading the five books in this series, it’s that JK Rowling _never_ puts a detail in one of her books for no reason, or even just for atmosphere. It’ll turn out to be significant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418.md?page=15)