# Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix (Major Spoilers!!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418 "2003-06-21T14:52:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/321 "2003-07-04T12:20:35Z")
The Gaspode: > [@](#): > > I understand that we’re supposed to feel for Harry, feel his frustration, but about a third of the way into this book, I was ready to give up. I was wondering if Rowling was setting out to make him as unsympathetic as possible. Yes, she does a good job of protraying teen angst. And yes, being that age means you tyhink no adult understands you. But Harry’s stubborness, even to confide in his closest friends, is just too much. I actually thought Harry was a more sympathetic character in this book. He seemed more realistic. Yes, I was irritated at him when he was too stubborn to confide in his friends, but I think that is exactly how we were supposed to feel about it. I don’t think we were supposed to just “feel his frustration” and give him a pass on everything. That’s the point. I remember a few times when Ginny had a quick response for Harry keeping things to himself, and it was pretty clear she was right, and Harry was being unreasonable, even taking his frustration into account. But at the same time, Harry was right. He _was_ the center of Voldemort’s plan. He _should_ have been told what was going on. His frustration _was_ justified. Just imagine being at the center of the plan of the most evil and dangerous wizard of all time, who killed your parents and tried to kill you, with nobody believing you, and nobody telling you anything. Although he took out his anger on his friends occasionally, Harry was really mad at Dumbledore. He obviously expected Dumbledore to fill him in on everything when he got back to school, and he was in disbelief that Dumbledore wouldn’t even look at him. If it had turned out that it was all just “teen angst”, then I would agree that it was too much. If it had turned out that once again Dumbledore had everything under control the whole time but Harry was too untrusting, then I would agree. But it wasn’t just “teen angst.” Harry was dealing with real frustrations. Justified frustrations. Although, I do hope he isn’t so frustrating in the next book! I think it would be better if he learned his lesson in this one, and from now on is more willing to confide in his friends. I also don’t particularly want to see “dark side” Harry. This is my favorite book in the series though. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/322 "2003-07-04T13:45:42Z")
Continuing to work my way through the thread, building the post as I read… Re: “Remember my last, Petunia”. > [@](#): > > Right. I pretty much got the meaning (especially after Dumbledore’s explanation), but that wording is terrible! Does it make sense right away to British readers? Do they typically hack off their direct objects in their sentences? I’m not British except by ancestry, but I’ve heard this construction used by Americans. For example, if someone gives an order and then rescinds it immediately he may say, “Belay my last.” > [@](#): > > I also teared up when Neville’s mum gave him the bubble gum wrapper, and instead of throwing it away, he puts it in his pocket. You know how some bubble gum wrappers have cartoons or jokes on them? I was thinking it would be interesting if Neville’s mom was trying to communicate with him through the wrappers. You know, choosing _specific_ wrappers to give him that imparts some message. > [@](#): > > I’m really starting to think Harry will die in the last book. Think about it- he has no proper life or personality. He is solely defined by his opposition to Voldemort. While he continually triumphs over his adversary, he has nothing else in his life, and all personal affairs end in tears for him. Except that the prophesy implies that either Voldemort or Harry will live. If Harry dies, then Voldemort will have won. I don’t think that readers will enjoy reading seven books only to find out that Voldemort wins to create a hell on Earth. (Of course both could die, the way Arthur Conan Doyle attempted to kill off Sherlock Holmes at the same time he kills off Moriarty.) > [@](#): > > As far as Harry using one of the unforgivable curses – it didn’t work for but a few seconds. I would have tried to use the crucatius curse too. That bitch. Yeah, I would have used it as well. Extreme conditions call for extreme measures. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t just what she did to Sirius, but remembering what she did to Neville’s parents, and how she gloated about it to Neville. I expected Neville to blast her into bits at the last minute. I was a little surprised that she escaped. > [@](#): > > I thought Rowling really showed exactly who the next DotDA teacher was going to be, > > ie, Harry Potter. I was thinking along similar lines, but… > [@](#): > > I highly doubt that Potter will be a teacher while he’s a student. He’s not the Quiddich teacher, is he? He wouldn’t be able to give grades, he wouldn’t have the time to teach 28 different sessions of the class a week (7 years at Hogwarts times 4 houses), etc. He barely had enough time to teach 25 students once a week. If Dumbledore doesn’t think Harry has enough time to be a prefect, he certainly can’t be a teacher! He did manage to find the time to teach a few students, but he’d no time to teach full-time _and_ be a student. Maybe he could do it as a “club”. About the only way he could _actually_ become a teacher is after he’s finished his education at the end of the series; and since Voldemort will be gone by then, the demand for a DatDA might be lessened a bit. > [@](#): > > For a while I had the idea that Petunia was a Squib, but I’ve dropped that - it just doesn’t seem logical anymore. I thought it was established in book 1 that she _is_ a squib, and that’s why she was so jealous of her sister? > [@](#): > > The High Inquisitor stuff was fabulous. Anyone here watch Babylon 5? It reminded me of Earth’s tightening its hold on the station and sending out new laws every minute or so and starting the Nightwatch to look for “traitors.” Umbridge was great, in a really horrible way, of course. Actually, it reminded me of the laws that are being passed in this country. > [@](#): > > Up until this point, I had assumed that while all the students claimed Snape wanted the DADA postion, that he was in fact content with Potions. Now we know that he has applied every year, and been turned down. This makes me wonder if perhaps the position is jinxed in some way (maybe just no one can hold the post for more than a year, maybe something more sinister). Dumbledore has therefore kept Snape out of the position, to ensure that Snape stays accessable at the school. I thought it was made clear in the first book that Snape coveted the position. Interesting idea about it being “jinxed”, but it seems to be more of a strategic decision to keep him out of it. And now to read page three. (I know these are long posts and that some topics might already be covered; but I really wanted to read the “authentic” edition.) ---
**Author:** ![bifar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bifar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bifar)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/323 "2003-07-04T13:55:14Z")
Ouf! I finished the book this morning. I was desperate to get it over and done with before I was properly spoiled. As it happened I had suspicions it would be Sirius all along and I’m very glad it was him. In a sense his only real interesting connection is with Harry (Snape’s nastiness manages to subsist off his James memories) and it’s more fun from the reader’s point of view to have Harry extra-angsty and Lupin the last of the Marauders. I love the idea of them in Snape’s memory, all arrogant and with such promise, having come to this: James and Sirius dead, Peter a traitor, and Lupin a bedraggled unemployed loser. (I also find Lupin a lot sexier than Sirius, which helps.) I also loved super-evil Harry. Chamber of Secrets is one of my favourites, while I believe it’s most people’s least favourite, but I love it when the Voldy side of Harry comes out. It makes the whole hero thing a lot more ambiguous. It was fun when he was bullying Dudders and being so nasty to Ron and Hermy. And it’s great how Rowling plays it; you kind of understand what he’s feeling, but it’s also a little scary, but also a bit laughable – you can see how much in thrall he is of his feelings. Anyway, generic good bits: - Loved the Harry-Cho interaction, both of them acting completely as teenagers would, with the added problem of the ghost of Cedric in their midst, which gave the whole thing a lovely tragic tinge. I was upset when it didn’t happen, but if it paves the way to Harry/Ginny or even Harry/Luna – eh. - Umbridge reminds me of a mixture of David Brent (from The Office) and that woman with the pens in League of Gentlemen. My she’s evil. I loved the lines detention, and how she spent time deciding where to point her Cruciatus curse at Harry. - Dumbledore caring too much for Harry! Sob! I’m glad Dumbledore is 3-dimensional at last. His continued implacable good humour was wearing thin. - James Potter – loved him being knocked down from his pedestal. His new personality also gives him the added bonus of being almost sexy. - Practically ever thing else – loved the department of mysteries, loved Mrs Weasley’s boggart vision, loved Grimmauld Place (wonder what Harry’s going to do with it?) Iffy bits: - Tonks was boring. I felt all at sea with the new characters at the beginning, none of whole seemed exactly thrilling. I was pleased when Harry was back at Hogwarts and everything was as it should be. - Harry was a MITE TOO ANGRY, wasn’t he! And although she does it well, Rowling should tone down the hyperbole slightly. It’s always the worst pain ever, the worst day, feeling the most miserable. How on earth is Harry going to feel in the next two books?! - If I have to wait another three months to know everything this book didn’t reveal – never mind Harry’s OWL results, what about his parents? What did they do? What exactly is Snape up to? Will Ron and Hermy _ever_ get together? Who are his grandparents? Is he related to Voldy or not? Gah, it’s too much, it really is. Excuse the stupidly long post. ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/324 "2003-07-04T14:06:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > **I thought it was established in book 1 that she is a squib, and that’s why she was so jealous of her sister?** Lily’s and Petunia’s parents were both muggles. So Petunia is either a muggle herself, or she is a witch, maybe too talentless to go to Hogwarts, or she just didn’t want to go. To be a squib you must have magical parents. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/325 "2003-07-04T14:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Ineresting points about Petunia have been brought up. Until the chapter when Dumbledore explains, I was certain that the Howler had been sent by Voldemort, and I itched to know why. Hm. I was sure it was sent by Dumbledore and I wondered why Harry didn’t recognize his voice. > [@](#): > > Did anyone else have to pop their eyes back into their skulls when Uncle Vernon yelled “Those effing owls!”? What am I going to bowdlerize _that_ to when I read it to Michaela? Hm. I don’t remember that in the English version. I’ll have to go back and see. What chapter was that in? > [@](#): > > As to the illustration for “The Second War Begins”, I thought that was cool, although she should have had lots more mascara around Moody’s unobstructed eye (Malcom MacDowell for Alastor Moody in the Goblet of Fire movie, anyone? 😉 ) There are no illustrations in my edition. :cofused: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/326 "2003-07-04T14:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Lily’s and Petunia’s parents were both muggles. Re: “Enough – effing –_owls!_” I see that it’s the same in the English edition. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/327 "2003-07-04T14:58:13Z")
Page 4… > [@](#): > > I’d like to see Harry approach Snape, on his own, and offer a sincere apology for misjudging him over all these years. It’d be hard to write a scene like that, but I think it needs to be done. I’d like to see that as well. Maybe it’s the kind of person I am; if there is a problem, I like to confront it. If I go to a person and attempt to work things out, and that person rebuffs my attempt, then I can say that I’ve made an honest effort to mend fences. At that point I just have to say to myself, “Well, this person has a visceral dislike for me. But that’s _his_ problem; not mine,” and go on with my life. But Rowling has established that neither Snape nor Harry will make such a move. I think there will be some sort of a resolution at the end, though. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/328 "2003-07-04T15:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mkl12 \* > \*\*Lily’s and Petunia’s parents were both muggles. \*\* How do we know this? If it’s something obvious, and I’ve forgotten, please forgive me. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/329 "2003-07-04T15:04:07Z")
In the beginning, I had the feeling that Rowling was building up some sexual tension between Tonks and Harry. Which would be kinda icky, even though she isn’t _that_ old. I’d put her in her early 20’s. I don’t have illustrations either… :feels cheated: ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/330 "2003-07-04T15:09:12Z")
In the first book, Petunia said: > [@](#): > > I was the only one who saw her for what she was – a freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family! I think that means that Lily was the only witch in the family. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/331 "2003-07-04T15:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Johnny L.A._ > I thought it was made clear in the first book that Snape coveted the position. Interesting idea about it being “jinxed”, but it seems to be more of a strategic decision to keep him out of it. Perhaps Dumbledore considers it bad public relations to have an ex Death Eater as the DADA teacher. _He_ knows that Snape’s reformed, but very few other people do, and even less believe it. ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/332 "2003-07-04T15:18:07Z")
And in The Chamber of Secrets, when talking to Tom Riddle, Harry said: > [@](#): > > But I know why you couldn’t kill me. Because my mother died to save me. My common Muggle-born mother. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/333 "2003-07-04T15:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*Considering that according to Bellatrix the reason it didn’t work was because he didn’t want it badly enough, I don’t think Harry can even be blamed with true intent to use an Unforgiveable Curse. \*\* I agree. I think that the Unforgivable Curses are supposed to represent the same basic morality in the wizarding world that we have in the Muggle world. They parallel our moral imperatives against rape and unlawful confinement (Imperius, which is a violation of free will), murder (Avada Kedavra, duh), and torture (Cruciatus). Harry wasn’t trying to torture Bellatrix for the fun of it, or to bend her to his will, he was trying to defend himself. The Unforgivable curses are such because they are performed out of pure maliciousness, and as such are unjustifiable. With Harry, he wasn’t trying to just hurt her for personal gain (well, he was, but only if “personal gain” means preserving life and limb). **mkl12** , You’re right, “a witch in the family” implies that Lily was the only one. But what I don’t get is that if Muggles don’t know that wizards are a “normal” part of their world (which is the entire reason for the existence of the Ministry Of Magic), why were Lily’s parents so accepting? Should we just assume they were very liberal? I would like to get some insight into how the Hogwarts letter is justified to people like Hermione’s parents, for example. Are they told the whole truth upfront? Or eased into it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/334 "2003-07-04T15:28:16Z")
Page 5… > [@](#): > > Umbridge was so well written. The epitome of malicious bureaucracy she had me in tears of rage with decree after decree… mind you, the subversive tactics of the teachers were fantastic. In addition to the whole MoM thing reminding me of Bush, Cheney and Rump-smelled, the decrees reminded me of the frequent decrees in Orwell’s _Animal Farm_. > [@](#): > > I think, if you want to use a historical analogy, Fudge is Nevile Chamberlain and Dumbledore is Winston Churchill. That’s also a fair analogy; and given that Rowling is British, it makes sense. > [@](#): > > As for why Sirius and the Death Eaters aren’t afraid of being sent thru the “death arch,” perhaps the death penalty has been abolished. Most civilised countries don’t have capital punishment. I thought of the Arch as being an artifact to be studied, not an instrument of justice. > [@](#): > > I had totally forgotten about Sirius’ present. When Harry decided to use Umbridge’s fireplace, I was wwondering why he didn’t use the gift instead. When Umbridge mentioned that her own flue was not monitored, I thought that that was a trap. > [@](#): > > I was pretty much undateable at 15 Heh. So was I. There were some girls who liked me, but I was too thick to understand. Hey, I had my motorcycle. I spent too much time boucing around the desert, and not enough thinking “Hey… She _likes_ me!” :smack: **Re: Snogging**. I kept thinking of Vyvyan worrying about if he was actually a virgin. “I hope snogging with SPG counts.” > [@](#): > > I do have one prediction that I haven’t seen mentioned here yet. I think that those gum wrappers Neville’s mother was slipping to him were some sort of message. The fact that he slipped it into his pocket was sad and touching, but I got the feeling there might be more to it than just that. I wouldn’t be surprised if Neville later reveals a large collection of gum wrappers with messages written on them. Maybe she’s been driven insane but still knows there’s something she needs to tell Neville and scribbbles her thoughts down on the wrappers? Maybe it’s a big puzzle that Neville’s trying to figure out… Aha! I was thinking the same thing! (I’m posting as I read, since it took a week to receive the book.) ---
**Author:** ![bifar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bifar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bifar)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/335 "2003-07-04T15:40:11Z")
Did any one notice that Fudge’s middle name was ‘Oswald’? A nod to Oswald Mosely, I reckon. (I liked how one of Dumbledore’s middle names was ‘Brian’.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/336 "2003-07-04T15:50:45Z")
Page 6… > [@](#): > > I also thought it was weird that Cho and Hermione had a Swan and Otter (it makes margianlly more sense had it been the other way around, seeing how Hermione’s an “ugly duckling”). > > (and) > > Hermione’s was appropos due to her previously having extremely large front teeth. Swans are considered graceful. I think the swan fits Cho. Being a Quidditch player, she has pretty good control over her body; and she seems to be very pretty. If the teeth had to do with Hermione’s patronus, in that case it should have been a beaver. I thought it was interesting that hers was an otter. I always think of otters as being playful – the opposite of Hermione, who is always so serious. I think it shows that deep down, Hermione longs to… erm, “let her hair down”. ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/337 "2003-07-04T16:08:43Z")
Just had a thought on the whole Cruciatus thing… Considering he is only a fifth year and has had a total of one competant DADA teacher, he doesn’t actually _know_ many useful spells. Cruciatus is one of the few offensive spells he has actually been exposed to, and therefore is one of the few ones he could try to defend himself with. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/338 "2003-07-04T16:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > \*\* > **mkl12** , You’re right, “a witch in the family” implies that Lily was the only one. But what I don’t get is that if Muggles don’t know that wizards are a “normal” part of their world (which is the entire reason for the existence of the Ministry Of Magic), why were Lily’s parents so accepting? Should we just assume they were very liberal? \*\* Interesting. What if Lily & Petunia’s parents were both Squibs, or perhaps one was a Squib and the other Muggle? If they only lived on the edges of the wizarding world - they knew about it, but because of their lack of magical ability they lived in the Muggle world and raised their children that way (like a Muggle-born would be raised) then they would be pleased that at least one of their daughters was a witch, and could be part of the world that they saw but couldn’t really be part of. We don’t really know what happens to Squibs, do we? Ron comments that he thinks there’s someone in his family who is an accountant, but that they don’t talk about him much. Mrs. Figg is a Squib, and she maintains contact with the wizarding world, but we don’t know much about how she lives. Filch stayed in the wizarding world…but I think there’s something about him/Mrs. Norris that’s yet to be explained. I have no doubt that he is, in fact, a Squib though. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/339 "2003-07-04T16:18:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Snape may hold a grudge against Harry, but surely his is intelligent enough to realize that he is behaving poorly? Dumbledore trusts him. Doncha think dear old Albus might take Snape aside and say, “Severus, you’re being a prick. So you weren’t popular as a student. You’re an adult now. Start acting like one.” > \*\* Snape believes that he is the only adult at Hogwarts who treats Harry fairly rather than spoiling and indulging him. He said as much in _Prisoner of Azkaban_. Snape sees that Harry is a favorite of Dumbledore’s and McGonagall’s and is allowed to get away with all sorts of misbehavior, and he sees himself as a counterbalance. He probably has rather _over_balanced what with the openly belittling Harry in class in front of other students, but even there Snape is not much worse to Harry than he is to other non-Slytherin students. And it is unclear to me whether Snape truly does feel a strong bias towards his own House or if he instead finds it helpful to protecting his secret role as a double agent for Dumbledore to act as though he does. I think Rowling’s depiction of Snape is very interesting, because the character shows that not everyone who is mean or unpleasant is actually evil, and that people can want to help you without being your friend. Harry still isn’t mature enough to understand this (he still doesn’t trust Snape, and I don’t think he’s ever thanked Snape for all his help), but someday I’m sure he will. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > So Umbridge wanted to shut up HP. And in the quote provided by **Wolfian** , this seems to be a general attitude at the MoM. This too doesn’t make sense, other than as a plot device. If the MoM really thinks that Voldy isn’t back, then having HP shooting off his mouth about it is no concern of theirs. From their POV he’s delusional and will end up being hoisted by his own petard. > \*\* The MoM wants Harry silenced or discredited because, even though the MoM knows (or thinks they know) that the Big V is dead, there is a very real chance that the wizarding public will believe Harry’s “crazy” story. The MoM doesn’t want to deal with senseless widespread panic, nor do they want the public demanding to know why they aren’t doing anything to act against Voldemort when as far as the MoM is concerned there’s nothing that can or needs to be done. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So really, the only logical explanation would be Umbridge working for Voldy. That would be a very good explanation, IMO, but Rowling doesn’t offer that straight out in the book. It can be inferred, but this is a book for younger readers, who’re not heavily into subtlety. And then again, neither is Rowling. > \*\* She is perhaps more subtle than you give her credit for. Having Umbridge working for Voldemort would have been predictable and, frankly, both stupid and boring. After it was revealed that she had called in the dementors I was afraid that was going to be the explanation, and it would have disappointed me very much had it been. But, as one of the adults told Harry early on in _Order of the Phoenix_, not everyone who is horrible is in league with Voldemort. Another moral lesson for our young hero, although again I’m not sure if he’s mature enough to appreciate it. Umbridge is perhaps evil, but her evil does not have the style or glamour of Voldemort’s. Umbridge illustrates the banality of evil. Despite her magical powers, she’s a mundane, human evil. She’s almost Nazi-like in her obsession with racial purity, strict adherence to the rules, and endless paperwork. Not Hitler-like, though – she hasn’t got the flair or the imagination. She’s more or less “just obeying orders”, although her willingness to go beyond those orders and outside the letter of the law when it suits her indicates that she is obsessed with her cause and likely mentally unstable. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*When Harry decided to use Umbridge’s fireplace, I was wwondering why he didn’t use the gift instead. > \*\* I was frustrated by the whole mirror thing at the end too, although like Harry I had forgotten about the gift at the time he wanted to contact Sirius. But I think maybe Harry didn’t understand what the gift would really do. From what Sirius said when he gave the gift to Harry, I think Harry might have interpreted his words to mean that it was some sort of summoning device rather than a communication device. Something like that probably would be too risky to use. Still, I find it hard to believe that Harry never even opened the gift to see what it was. I was really surprised about that. Who leaves a present unopened for months, even if they’re sure it’s something they’ll never use? But perhaps Harry felt that if he opened it he’d be too tempted to use it. I do hope Rowling does something with this in the next book though, because I found it a very frustrating plot point in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418/340 "2003-07-04T16:18:25Z")
> [@](#): > > why were Lily’s parents so accepting? Should we just assume they were very liberal? If I were to have a kid, and he or she turned out to be magical, I would be very pleased. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potter-the-order-of-the-phoenix-major-spoilers/183418.md?page=18)