# Harry Potter's final dilemma (speculation/spoiler) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2006, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903 "2006-04-02T02:47:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/21 "2006-04-03T05:51:46Z")
I think it’s fairly safe to say that Harry will survive–the series is still drawing in kids as one of its main targets, even though adults and teens make up a good portion of the audience now, too. All bets are off for any other characters, but I’m doubtful of either Ron or Hermione not making it (call it a hunch for now). As for Voldemort–it would be interesting if Harry “defeated” him first, blasted him away in a duel or whatever, and then raced against time to find the other Horcruxes before Voldemort had a chance to resurrect himself. Don’t forget that the Death Eaters and the Dark Army would be gathered close to Voldemort by now, so Harry would be really working as fast and hard as possible. Anybody else thinking Felix Felicis (the lucky potion) hasn’t made its last appearance? Granted, it works kind of as a deus ex machina–the good guys who took it in HBP were basically unbeatable–but damn, that would come in handy. Any news on the title yet? I keep hearing something about a pyramid… ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/22 "2006-04-03T05:56:57Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > My theory (and I’m sure I’m not alone in it) is that Snape was, in fact, in love with Lily. He helped Voldemort find the Potter residence hoping that he would kill James. When Voldemort also killed Lily though, probably breaking a promise to Snape, that turned Snape irrevocably against him. Dumbledore knew that, which is why he had unshakeable confidence in Snape, but could never explain why. Snape isn’t bad. He was practically begging Harry to work harder on his silent incantations in order for Harry to have a chance against Voldemort. I think you’re right about Snape and Lily. There are a lot of hints in the last book taht this was the case. But Dumbledore trusted Snape as a spy during Voldemort’s first rise, before Lily was killed, so I don’t think it was her death that brought Snape over to the good guys. Perhaps Snape knew that Voldemort planned to do in the Potters ahead of time, and that is what turned him to the Light side of the Force. ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/23 "2006-04-03T09:36:58Z")
I reiterate what I’ve said in previous speculation threads. I think the last Horcrux is \*\*either \*\* something in Sirius’ house that Kreatcher has stashed in his nest full of old Black artifacts and heirlooms **OR** one of the silver goblets that Mundungus stole to fence. (I think the initials in the mysterious message are Sirius’ brother’s.) As for Lily Potter, I’ve always assumed that she was the reason why Snape originally left the dark side. ---
**Author:** ![Phantom\_Dennis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Phantom\_Dennis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phantom_Dennis)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/24 "2006-04-03T15:58:35Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > I think it’s fairly safe to say that Harry will survive–the series is still drawing in kids as one of its main targets, even though adults and teens make up a good portion of the audience now, too. All bets are off for any other characters, but I’m doubtful of either Ron or Hermione not making it (call it a hunch for now). Remember, she had the entire series outlined years before the first book was published, and at the time, she couldn’t have known how popular the series would become, or what kind of audience it would draw. According to interviews, her books have always followed the outlines, and even her publisher does not know the contents of book 7. These may be children/young adult books, but you have to admit, they’re darker than average – plenty of murders (including children), torture, insanity, mutilation, blood sacrifices, posession, negligent foster parents, soul-eating dementors, zombies, werewolves, etc., and now an outright war with genocidal features – the Death Eaters are basically pure-blood supremacists. The Hero’s death in the final book would not surprise me, although I’m starting to suspect it’s almost too obvious, which probably means I’m being misdirected by the clues. > [@](#): > > As for Voldemort–it would be interesting if Harry “defeated” him first, blasted him away in a duel or whatever, and then raced against time to find the other Horcruxes before Voldemort had a chance to resurrect himself. Don’t forget that the Death Eaters and the Dark Army would be gathered close to Voldemort by now, so Harry would be really working as fast and hard as possible. It would be unexpected, but a little anticlimatic. The series begs for a huge final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort. While Horcrux hunting will probably be a big part of book seven, I’m guessing there will only be one left when it’s time for Harry to confront Voldemort. > [@](#): > > Anybody else thinking Felix Felicis (the lucky potion) hasn’t made its last appearance? Granted, it works kind of as a deus ex machina–the good guys who took it in HBP were basically unbeatable–but damn, that would come in handy. Not to mention the Time Turner. Why not just go back and kill Tom Riddle in his cradle (and while we’re at it, Hitler). I think one of the weaknesses of the series is the inclusion of so many powerful magical spells/devices that for some reason can only be used once within the book they’re introduced, only to be forgotten in later situations when they might be extremely useful. I’d actually be glad if things like Felix Felicis and the Time Turner are put to some interesting uses again in the final book, just so they don’t feel so much like convenient plot devices. > [@](#): > > Any news on the title yet? I keep hearing something about a pyramid… There are lots of fake titles floating around, including something involving a pyramid, but nothing’s official yet. My guess: “Harry Potter and the Boy Who Died” (in shiny red letters). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/25 "2006-04-03T16:07:03Z")
I think that I’ve posted this before, but I expect the Horcruxes to be somewhat sentient. The two horcruxes we’ve seen, Nagini and the diary, were able to think for themselves. Moreover, Dumbledore says in HBP that he realized that the diary was a Horcrux because it was able to think for itself. The Dementor’s Kiss provides another clue. The Kiss sucks one’s soul out of their body, and after one suffers it their body is still alive but just an empty shell – no thoughts or feelings. It follows that in the HP universe, the soul is responsible for sentience. Given that a horcrux contains a piece of a soul, I don’t think that it’s too outlandish to conclude that a horcrux could exhibit sentience. I also wonder if Harry might discover he has a connection with the horcruxes like he does with Voldemort. That would explain why some of his Voldemort dreams have been from Nagini’s perspective(definitely the one in OotP involving Mr. Weasley, and I think that the dream at the beginning of GoF in the Riddle House was also from Nagini’s perspective). On the other hand, Harry didn’t seem to exhibit any sort of connection with the diary. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/26 "2006-04-03T17:25:08Z")
> [@Phantom Dennis](#): > > Not to mention the Time Turner. Why not just go back and kill Tom Riddle in his cradle (and while we’re at it, Hitler). I don’t remember exactly, but wasn’t the time turner’s unit of measure the hour? That’s upwards of half a million turns to go back 50-odd years to take out You Know Who while he was still in diapers. Maybe they could put the time turner in a centrifuge. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/27 "2006-04-03T17:49:26Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > I don’t remember exactly, but wasn’t the time turner’s unit of measure the hour? That’s upwards of half a million turns to go back 50-odd years to take out You Know Who while he was still in diapers. Maybe they could put the time turner in a centrifuge. Voldemort’s death has been put back as far as 1926, on New Year’s Eve–at least by the movies. If you follow the book’s timeline, which lands the kids currently in (I believe) 2003, it would take 674,520 turns to get them back to Voldemort’s birth. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/28 "2006-04-03T17:50:29Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > Voldemort’s death… Birth, that is. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/29 "2006-04-03T18:25:17Z")
> [@](#): > > My theory (and I’m sure I’m not alone in it) is that Snape was, in fact, in love with Lily. He helped Voldemort find the Potter residence hoping that he would kill James. When Voldemort also killed Lily though, probably breaking a promise to Snape, that turned Snape irrevocably against him. According to Dumbledore’s evidence before the Wizengamot in GoF, Snape turned spy _prior_ to Voldemort’s fall, so I think the timing on that theory is off. Besides, Snape didn’t help Voldemort find the Potter’s residence – he couldn’t, as he wasn’t their Secret-Keeper. Rowling has confirmed in interviews that someone other than James was in love with Lily and that this is relevant to the plot, but I’m betting that this person was Peter Pettigrew – who _did_ reveal the Potters’ location to Voldemort and _would_ have been in a position to bargain for Lily’s life. (We’ve also not seen him flinging any racial epithets at Lily, which to my mind is the biggest stumbling block for the “Snape loved Lily” theory.) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/30 "2006-04-03T18:40:35Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I think that I’ve posted this before, but I expect the Horcruxes to be somewhat sentient. The two horcruxes we’ve seen, Nagini and the diary, were able to think for themselves. Moreover, Dumbledore says in HBP that he realized that the diary was a Horcrux because it was able to think for itself. Well, well well. Hrm. Well. Well, then. Can anyone think of a magical item that: 1. Exhibits sentience. 2. Hates non-pure bloods. 3. Is tied into the House of Black? What about the portrait of Sirius mother in the hallway at Grimmauld Place? It has all of the needed features above AND no one in the Order of the Phoenix (which would include POWERFUL wizards and even Dumbledore himself!) could figure out how to remove it from the wall. Well, well, well. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/31 "2006-04-03T18:49:53Z")
Is there any reason why Snape can’t be Harry’s real father? James could have married Harry’s mom when she was knocked up. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/32 "2006-04-03T18:51:09Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Is there any reason why Snape can’t be Harry’s real father? James could have married Harry’s mom when she was knocked up. You mean, besides the fact that it’d end up reading like a _Star Wars_ pastiche? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/33 "2006-04-03T18:56:17Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > You mean, besides the fact that it’d end up reading like a _Star Wars_ pastiche? > > 😛 But without the heavy breathing. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/34 "2006-04-03T19:20:01Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > Voldemort’s death has been put back as far as 1926, on New Year’s Eve–at least by the movies. If you follow the book’s timeline, which lands the kids currently in (I believe) 2003, it would take 674,520 turns to get them back to Voldemort’s birth. Eh? I thought that the generally-accepted timeline(ie the Lexicon timeline) had PS set in 1991, meaning that the last book will be set in 1997. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/35 "2006-04-03T19:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Not to mention the Time Turner. Why not just go back and kill Tom Riddle in his cradle (and while we’re at it, Hitler). Paradox. If Voldemort hadn’t grown up, come to power and killed the Potters, the sequence of events leading to Harry using a time-turner to cause his death would not have happened. Heck, even if Harry and his parents are taken out of the equation…no one would want to kill baby Tom until the motivation - his actions as Voldemort - would have occurred. Time-turners have been shown to be unable to change the past. They can _affect_ the past, but the contemporaries of the time-traveler’s adventuring period would have seen those effects. Tom grew up, became Voldemort, etc. A time-turner cannot make that, or any event known historically to have occured, un-happen. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/36 "2006-04-03T19:48:43Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I think that I’ve posted this before, but I expect the Horcruxes to be somewhat sentient. The two horcruxes we’ve seen, Nagini and the diary, were able to think for themselves. Moreover, Dumbledore says in HBP that he realized that the diary was a Horcrux because it was able to think for itself. The Dementor’s Kiss provides another clue. The Kiss sucks one’s soul out of their body, and after one suffers it their body is still alive but just an empty shell – no thoughts or feelings. It follows that in the HP universe, the soul is responsible for sentience. Given that a horcrux contains a piece of a soul, I don’t think that it’s too outlandish to conclude that a horcrux could exhibit sentience. > > I also wonder if Harry might discover he has a connection with the horcruxes like he does with Voldemort. That would explain why some of his Voldemort dreams have been from Nagini’s perspective(definitely the one in OotP involving Mr. Weasley, and I think that the dream at the beginning of GoF in the Riddle House was also from Nagini’s perspective). On the other hand, Harry didn’t seem to exhibit any sort of connection with the diary. Wait, Nagini was a horcrux? I missed this…where did that come up? I thought there was an argument that putting a horcrux into a living thing was a bad idea? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/37 "2006-04-03T20:18:02Z")
> [@Love Rhombus](#): > > Wait, Nagini was a horcrux? I missed this…where did that come up? I thought there was an argument that putting a horcrux into a living thing was a bad idea? Dumbledore _speculated_ that Nagini might be the sixth Horcrux, possibly created with the death of caretaker Frank from Riddle Hall. While Dumbledore did allow that it would be inadvisable to create horcrux using a living creature as the vessel, he was led to this speculation based on peculiarities in Nagini’s behavior and in her relationship with Voldemort. It’s nt cast in stone, but I think Rowling is going to let Dumbledore be right about this. Personally, I would be surprised to find Voldemort to be up to the task of creating a horcrux, while he’s still using the jury-rigged body he was in. I would also be surprised if a horcrux could be created on the spur of the moment like that, but I’m not in charge of continuity. Snape is not Harry’s father. Harry looks too much like James Potter to be anyone else’s son. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/38 "2006-04-03T20:23:58Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Is there any reason why Snape can’t be Harry’s real father? James could have married Harry’s mom when she was knocked up. It’s been debunked as a [rumour](http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/rumours_view.cfm?id=3) by J.K. > [@Phantom Dennis](#): > > Not to mention the Time Turner. Why not just go back and kill Tom Riddle in his cradle (and while we’re at it, Hitler). The [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel) article on Time Travel actually uses the HP universe as an example - > [@](#): > > In 1.1, time travel is constrained to prevent paradox. If one attempts to make a paradox, one undergoes involuntary or uncontrolled time travel. > > 1.2 The Novikov self-consistency principle applies (named after Dr. Igor Dmitrievich Novikov, Professor of Astrophysics at Copenhagen University). The principle states that if you travel in time, you cannot act in such a way so as to create a paradox. > > An example which could conceivably fall into either 1.1 or 1.2 can be seen in book and film versions of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Harry and Hermione go back in time to change history. As they do so it becomes apparent that they are simply performing actions that were previously seen in the story, although neither the characters nor the reader were aware of the causes of those actions at the time. This is another example of the predestination paradox. It is arguable, however, that the mechanics of time travel actually prevented any paradoxes, firstly, by preventing them from realizing a priori that time travel was occurring and secondly, by enabling them to recall the precise action to take at the precise time and keep history consistent. So they can’t go back in time to kill Tom Riddle, because if they did they must fail. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/39 "2006-04-03T20:28:13Z")
What about the wands? Harry’s and Voldemort’s are both from the same phoenix (Fawkes, if memory serves)–and didn’t the wand guy say that no wand could work against it’s brother wand fully? I think that’s important. I am also of the camp that believes that Snape pined after Lily-even though Rowling has said no to that. There MUST be something other than teasing to cause such hatred of Harry–either that or Snape is a cartoon character (and I don’t believe that). Harry and Voldemort must have a showdown, for sure. But the other players are what is going to make it all interesting. I can see Ron dying (and what has happened to Ron? In the first book, it was his chess playing that helped immeasurably–now he’s a comic foil for Harry). I can Neville also dying (which would upset me–I am a Neville fan). I can also see Harry being forced to trust Malfoy Jr in some way–I doubt that Draco is all bad. The whole horcrux thing just confuses me, so I ignore it. Convenient, eh? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903/40 "2006-04-03T20:42:16Z")
When Dumbledore died in the sixth book,he was silently performing spells. My guess is that he performed the same spell on Harry that Lilly had. Of course, I _believe_ that means Harry’s only protected from being killed by Snape, so there’s a missing piece there. My WAG is that Snape is going to do something to tie his soul to Voldemort’s, and then perform the Avada Kedavra on Harry, which will backfire (by design) killing Snape and Voldemort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-potters-final-dilemma-speculation-spoiler/350903.md?page=3)