# Harry Turtledove-In at the Death **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687 "2007-07-30T15:05:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/21 "2007-08-02T04:27:29Z")
I know, I know, I just hate it when a series of books doesn’t _match_. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/22 "2007-08-02T05:33:53Z")
A favor please? I have read some of this series of books over the years, and would love to finish it. It has been so long, I will need to read the entire series from the beginning, so… Can someone post a list in order of these tittles? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/23 "2007-08-02T06:28:05Z")
Rick: How Few Remain Great War: American Front Great War: Walk in Hell Great War: Breakthroughs American Empire: Blood and Iron American Empire: The Center Cannot Hold American Empire: The Victorious Opposition Settling Accounts: Return Engagement Settling Accounts: Drive to the East Settling Accounts: The Grapple Settling Accounts: In at the Death Just finished. It’s 2 Am tho, and I don’t feel like anything but bed right now. I will say this, tho: This series has made me awfully glad that I live in this universe and not that one. It’s a pretty terrible place. Captain Amazing: Petrograd, Hamburg, Paris, London and the 2 other British cities, I forget which ones, Philly, Newport News and Charleston, so yea, nine seems to be correct. Damn! ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/24 "2007-08-02T06:39:51Z")
I’ve been following, interminably it feels, this series since it started. I really think that although the series seems to start with How Few Remain, it actually begins with Turtledove’s election prediciton epilogue to Guns of the South. When that book came out, I read it, and was ultimately dissatisfied with the entire AK-47 as deus ex machina. The Timeline-191 series’ production makes me think that HT had the same feeling about the book, and wrote HFR as a way of apologizing for not putting more effort into his alternate history there. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/25 "2007-08-02T06:51:03Z")
**Weirddave** Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have looked for this before and never found it. In case you were unaware of it, you rock! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/26 "2007-08-02T13:26:05Z")
Dave does rock, it’s true. I’m glad the gloves are finally off. [spoiler]Poor Sam! Am I the only who thought that Turtledove played off his obsession with his fair skin tone by giving him cancer at the end? And I’m desperately glad that Featherston didn’t kill himself after marrying Lulu. I’ve always felt it was weak when the events in the series followed real-world events too closely. Like when the CSA invaded on 6/22. It was just too pat for me to buy. But by not going that way he shook it up.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/27 "2007-08-02T13:49:18Z")
Oh, and have you guys seen this: [Opening Atlantis](http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Atlantis-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0451461746/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7092156-4087942?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184865597&sr=8-1) “Atlantis lies between Europe and the East Coast of Terranova. For many years, this land of opportunity lured dreamers from around the globe with its natural resources, offering a new beginning for those willing to brave the wonders of the unexplored land.” ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/28 "2007-08-02T14:14:49Z")
There’s a UK paperback of Drive to the East, if anyone’s really keen on having a paperback edition… [Amazon UK](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Settling-Accounts-Drive-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0340826886/ref=sr_11_1/202-1100866-9165446?ie=UTF8&qid=1186063937&sr=11-1) link ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/29 "2007-08-02T14:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] I know, I know, I just hate it when a series of books doesn’t _match_. [/QUOTE] Me too. My OCD on this issue keeps kicking in whenever I think about my Harry Potter collection (first three or four in TP and the rest in HC), my Miles Vorkosigan collection (a mixed bag, although again most of the later ones in HC, and my Honor Harrington books particularly mixed, with several of the HCs personally autographed because I was selling books at SF conventions when they came out, and David Weber would stop by my table. D) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/30 "2007-08-02T15:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Just finished. It’s 2 Am tho, and I don’t feel like anything but bed right now. I will say this, tho: This series has made me awfully glad that I live in this universe and not that one. It’s a pretty terrible place. [/QUOTE] It is a pretty terrible place, although we are seeing a particulary terrible part of it at a particularly terrible time. It’s more, I think, that it, especially North America, is a lot harder, more “shell shocked” place than in our timeline. In our world, we were able to unify again after the Civil War, and we were able to develop a kind of optimism and faith in America’s destiny. The alternate timeline never got that optimism. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/31 "2007-08-02T18:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, and have you guys seen this: Opening Atlantis That’s the good thing about Harry Turtledove books. They’re like buses - if you miss one, there’s another one coming along right behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/32 "2007-08-03T07:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] It is a pretty terrible place, although we are seeing a particulary terrible part of it at a particularly terrible time. It’s more, I think, that it, especially North America, is a lot harder, more “shell shocked” place than in our timeline. In our world, we were able to unify again after the Civil War, and we were able to develop a kind of optimism and faith in America’s destiny. The alternate timeline never got that optimism. [/QUOTE] Well, I think You’ve put your finger exactly on it. I know this is a notion that is going to get heaps of scorn from the I-hate-America crowd that so poisons leftest political dialog these days, but by and large, America has always stood for something good in the world. We’re the country that took the concept of individual liberty and rights and actually lived it. The idea has been around for a long time, but we put it into practice, and the modern world has benefited enormously from it. America hasn’t been perfect, God no, far from it, but we’ve led the way. You and I, and anyone else can get into endless arguments about how well America has fulfilled that mission, and we’d all have valid points, no matter which side of the discussion we happened to fall on, but the world that Turtledove brings so vividly to life would never have produced the Statue of Liberty and her glowing words: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door. Instead, the Statue of Remembrance sits on Liberty Island and we have nothing more than a Balkanized America. However badly America might be living up to her ideals at any given time, the fact that she had them has made a profound, positive difference in the world, and that’s what’s lacking in Turtledove’s timeline. And that’s a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/33 "2007-08-04T19:52:35Z")
I definitely enjoyed the series as a whole… I do wonder if he’s going to write another book about the next events in this universe. So many people spent so much time speculating about how any kind of stability can ever be achieved via anything other than massive ongoing military occupation, and no resolution seems to be come to. I did find the resolution of most of the characters’ storylines reasonable… Pinkard unapologetic to the last, Potter writing his memoirs while basically still in denial, Cassius having his moment of glory, Flora still the politician with the pendulum swinging away from her this time. Would anyone else like to see a grownup book written in the Crosstime Traffic universe? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/34 "2007-08-04T23:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Well, I think You’ve put your finger exactly on it. I know this is a notion that is going to get heaps of scorn from the I-hate-America crowd that so poisons leftest political dialog these days, but by and large, America has always stood for something good in the world. [/QUOTE] Some of us see the rightist crowd trying hard to dismantle all that America-glowy-good stuff you just spouted. Then again, I thought crap like you just spouted was supposed to stay out of CS? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/35 "2007-08-04T23:33:36Z")
In retrospect, I’m kind of surprised that four countries got the bomb, and managed to make at least ten (the UK had two, but the second one didn’t go off anywhere populous). IIRC, we made two in 1945, drawing on the resources of every state and most of Germany’s geniuses; here, the U.S., C.S., U.K. and Germany all got it in 1944, and barely worked together at all. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/36 "2007-08-05T01:42:37Z")
I was actually surprised to see Potter survive the last book. If you remember, there was a scene talking about how the War Department was arranging “accidents” for some of the Confederate higher ups who should have been sentenced do death in war crimes trials but weren’t. Then, a few scenes later, Potter is talking to a homeless ex-soldier in a Richmond park. I didn’t think he was walking out of that scene. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/37 "2007-08-05T07:47:12Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Some of us see the rightist crowd trying hard to dismantle all that America-glowy-good stuff you just spouted. Then again, I thought crap like you just spouted was supposed to stay out of CS? -Joe [/QUOTE] Ahh, Joe, don’t ever change. Still following me around, slavishly “refuting” my points. Really, it does my heart good each and every time I read one of your lovesick posts directed at me, it validates me. Personally, I have to tell you that I’m very sorry, but I’m committed to my wife. You don’t have a chance. I am flattered though. Tell me, have you ever even read a Harry Turtledove book? Seriously, I’d like an answer to that, and which book you’ve read, maybe we could discuss it here in CS. As for the so called “substance” of your post, we’re discussing an alternate fictional reality wherein the United States did not achieve the continental domination and worldwide influence that we in this world take for granted, and I’m comparing the two. As such I think my posts are entirely appropriate to this thread. You disagree? That’s great. Tell me how. Use examples from one of Turtledove’s books in this series and contrast them with reality. Think you’re up to the task? I await with bated breath. Finally, as an historically educated American, I am quite proud of what America has accomplished in the last 230 years. It hasn’t all been good, Lord no, but the impact of America on the world has been overwhelmingly positive and a little bit negative. You think that the truth lies in the opposite extreme. What was your term for the impact America has had on the world? _scanning upwards…_ Ahh! Here it is: “crap”. Defend that position if you please, I’d like to refute it. Lord knows that I need something easy to do, real life is currently kicking my ass with important stuff, this would be a nice vacation from that. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/38 "2007-08-05T16:45:08Z")
**Weirddave** and **Merijeek** , keep the personal and the political out of Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/39 "2007-08-05T18:46:41Z")
Excuse me Skip, but we’re discussing a novel that involves quite a bit of politics, can we talk about that? You know, comparing the fictional world to the real one and all that shit? Is that allowed? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687/40 "2007-08-06T21:21:31Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Excuse me Skip, but we’re discussing a novel that involves quite a bit of politics, can we talk about that? You know, comparing the fictional world to the real one and all that shit? Is that allowed? [/QUOTE] Discuss the novel all you want, Dave, but using this thread to make another of your overbroad political snipes only detracts from the thread. Expend your cheap shots in the Pit and leave them out of Cafe Society. If you want to comment on this any further, do so in the Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harry-turtledove-in-at-the-death/413687.md?page=3)