# Harsh Commentary from Ex-Obama Supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839 "2010-08-29T00:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/81 "2010-08-31T05:04:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Have these small business owners some special expertise in economic policy? Or are you offering us spiffy new update on the myth of cracker-barrel wisdom? If small business owners are infallible founts of wisdom when it comes to things economic, why do we even have any economics at all? For whatever reason, we have the perfect source for guidance. Why do you think that they need to be infallible founts of economic wisdom? As the OP mentioned, their perception is important enough. That’s why the surveys I quoted matter. For example, if believing that the government’s policies are contrary to their interests causes them not to expand by hiring, it will have a clear impact on the unemployment and the overall financial well-being of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/82 "2010-08-31T05:43:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@L. G. Butts](#): > > > > Maybe. But, if so, why are US treasuries trading with near record high bid-to-cover ratios while the bond yields are at near record lows? It seems to me that the US government can’t borrow enough money to satisfy investors even though the yeilds are lower than they have been in more than a decade. This fact does not seem to gibe with your statement. > > There is talk of dumping the dollar and according to [Moody](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/business/global/16rating.html) our credit rating is edging closer to a downgrade. Yeah, I read it. I understand. I can believe that our credit rating is moving “closer” to a downgrade, but we are still very far from that point. The dollar and US Government debt are still sterling and very in demand as shown by the popularity of our bonds even though their yields are at record lows. But your point is made, if we continue current trends, this cannot continue. The talk of dumping the dollar is pretty whacky however, what would be a replacement? The Euro? I think the lack of stability in that currency is very evident with everything going on with the piigs. What else? Anyway, what I don’t get is the vehement hatred of President Obama’s policies. The health care overhaul was taken directly from the 90’s Republican play book with a little extra from some conservative think tanks in the early part of last decade. Who knows, it might even save the government money and help consumers. Regardless, something needed to change and I sure didn’t see any ideas coming from the right (well except don’t get sick, and if you do, die quickly). Almost everybody agreed that the stimulus was important at the time, especially economists. I know that many people, including some economists, did not think it would work, but most agreed it wouldn’t hurt. It wasn’t even that big, 500 billion (about 3 times the size of the Bush stimulus passed only 9 months before) with another 250 billion in tax cuts (don’t conservatives like tax cuts?). It was nothing compared to the 700 billion spent on TARP and the 2 Trillion the fed printed in the last days of the Bush Administration, but conservatives seem to blame this on Obama also. President Obama has more boots on the ground at our southern border than any time in history and has gone out of his way to fine businesses that hire immigrants in this country illegally. He has done more than any president in history to stem this tide, but he gets no credit from conservatives there. He has made bold moves with the war on terror, both with the surge in Afghanistan and with strikes against the Taliban and Al Qaeda both in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but conservative seem to want to cut and run now that a Democrat is in charge. I have yet to see a truly valid argument how President Obama is a radical bent on destroying this country. And Sam, who I like and enjoy reading generally, has been sucked up in the tide. The OP is crap, for all kinds of reasons already pointed out. Sam is way better than this and should be able to argue against Obama’s policies on their merits, hell even I can do that and I’m a supporter, but instead he gives us this crap? Step away from the talk radio… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/83 "2010-08-31T07:08:07Z")
The problem with the stimulus is that it didn’t stimulate much of anything. Other than a few road projects it was a serious pork barrel waste of money. My city got hybrid buses it didn’t need and my state got a grant for high speed rail that will lose money if it goes into being. Our grand children will be paying for the debt on top of a social security deficit. Instead of concentrating on fixing the unemployment problem the President cut deep sea oil drilling and is still talking about increasing cap and trade taxes. This is the exact opposite of what we need. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/84 "2010-08-31T15:24:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The problem with the stimulus is that it didn’t stimulate much of anything. Other than a few road projects it was a serious pork barrel waste of money. My city got hybrid buses it didn’t need and my state got a grant for high speed rail that will lose money if it goes into being. Our grand children will be paying for the debt on top of a social security deficit. > > Instead of concentrating on fixing the unemployment problem the President cut deep sea oil drilling and is still talking about increasing cap and trade taxes. This is the exact opposite of what we need. Didn’t it also include a bunch of tax cuts? Sounds like we can conclude that tax cuts don’t help stimulate the economy… ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/85 "2010-08-31T15:28:27Z")
> [@erez](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > This is actually a very fascinating exchange. I compared the relationship between government and small business owners to that of parent and child, in that I don’t believe small business owners can see much further than their own self interest (and there is nothing inherently wrong with that). > > > > Your analogy compared SBO to the relationship between nutritionists and food. Which to me suggests that you think SBO are as knowledgeable about regulations as nutritionists are about nutrition. > > > > Is that a fair characterization? > > > > As a personal anecdote/example, I’ve spent a lot of time in the restaurant industry, where we might consider a restaurant owner to be a _small business owner_, perhaps you have a different view of things. Point is, there are government regulations that dictate how a restaurant operates, and if given the choice, I’ve known many owners that would have happily seen them removed. > > > > “Stupid government telling me I can’t store raw chicken above ready to eat salads.” > > “Telling me I have to keep hot foods above 140F and cold foods below 40F” > > “Wash my hands after use the bathroom? fuck you, I’ll wash them when I feel like it.” > > It appears to me that you want to argue a different issue altogether: whether some business regulations are good for the country as a whole. But this is not what my evidence and my argument was about. As you said yourself, “First you ask if Obama’s policies are good for businesses” - that’s what I was talking about. In addition, even the OP mentioned other issues besides regulations (such as taxes, anti-business posturing, “other interventions”). For the record, I definitely disagree with your analogy (parent=government, small business owners=children), but I think that any further debate should be in a separate thread. Right, I also accidentally got you confused with **adhay** and apologize for that. What is _anti-business posturing_? If the issue is that of \*perception \*(by small business owners), what does [any] government need to do to make small business owners _feel_ better? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/86 "2010-08-31T22:32:19Z")
> [@erez](#): > > If you are still supporting Germany’s answer to the recession, you are going against American liberal economists who fiercely attacked it and held it up as an example of what not do. Here is what Krugman said I admit to being very suspicious of a criticism of Germany’s approach to the recession based on what some predicted would happen, as opposed to what actually HAS happened. If in fact Germany’s approach was wrong, as compared to other Western nations, it should be very easy to provide some evidence showing they have done poorly over the last two years, as opposed to dredging up criticisms from years ago that we’ve had time to determine the validity of. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/87 "2010-09-01T02:27:52Z")
The gist is, “We, the top few percent, the biggest, the richest, the most powerful, intend to hold the nation hostage by holding back on investment, hiring and lending, until we get rid of this guy who wants to tax us, regulate us and hold us otherwise accountable for our actions (and/or crimes) and cut into our record-breaking profits.” Fuck them. (hey, it’s only fair; they’ve fucked US plenty) ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/88 "2010-09-01T03:12:37Z")
I want to add (as a separate post) that the idea being currently seeded in the mass consciousness that Obama is, to quote Adhay, “Bush in blackface” (and otherwise disappointing) is nonsense. Let us not lose sight of what he has accomplished to date (those who seek to supplant him certainly haven’t…why do you think they are so rabid to get him out and reverse his reforms?) In the face of the worst economic downturn since the Great depression, two wars, and unrelenting obstruction and character assasination, he has pushed through legislation which has the potential to be as revolutionary as Social Security, Medicare or Anti-trust. He has represented our nation with dignity, intelligence and principle, and restored much of the goodwill squandered by Bush. And what is the alternative those on the left seek? (I ask as a left-leaning Independent myself who voted for Obama and still support him). Huh? Dumb-asses? 😕:smack: He TOLD you he wasn’t a socialist or radical leftist…what? Did you assume he was lying, like the right did and still do? Idiots. And who is YOUR candidate? You know, the one who can keep the Republicans from re-taking power and rolling back everything Obama HAS managed to accomplish thus far and then some? Like I thought…dead silence. :rolleyes: I am almost as pissed at my fellow lefties as I am at the righties. Fine, attack Obama and let’s have 4 to 8 MORE years of the Republicans. NO, he’s NOT a socialist OR a radical leftist. He is a moderate pragmatist, like he SAID he was. He concedes too much in his efforts to engage across party lines. He ain’t gonna legalize pot (though the DEA DID stop harrassing small growers in states with legal medical pot, a HUGE change from the Bush DEA). He’s not going to get us a single payer system (but he has laid the groundwork which can be built upon later IF we don’t let it be dismantled in the meantime!). The financial reforms passed don’t go quite far enough but they go a hell of a lot farther than what we had and what any Republican administration would allow to happen. ETC… I am as idealistic as the next person (I usually vote for 3rd party candidates in races where my vote for the Democrats is not going to count, both to support opening up the systm to alternatives and because I happen to prefer the actual candidates and their positions. I voted FOR Obama, however, on his own merits, even though it was pretty clear he didn’t need my vote) but COME ON! When it comes down to a return to Republican rule or Obama (and it does, make no mistake) are you REALLY going to continue undermining OBAMA? Idiots. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/89 "2010-09-01T04:48:12Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > > > … There will be bumps, but people will get through them. > > And the meek shall inherit the wind. So they say. Long term I tend to believe the species will be fine. We collectively have survived far worse things with far fewer resources (material, wealth, scientific, technological) to use to help us get through them. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/90 "2010-09-01T10:44:19Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > And the meek shall inherit the wind. So they say. > > Long term I tend to believe the species will be fine. We collectively have survived far worse things with far fewer resources (material, wealth, scientific, technological) to use to help us get through them. Oh, I agree that we will make but in _greatly_ reduced numbers. Those who can, over the next, say, 20 years, wean themselves from dependence on cheap oil will do just fine. The sooner one starts, the better. That weaning must include establishing local independence from imported food and fuel for traction, transport and transportation and developing local basic manufacturing. As for our present “material, wealth, scientific [and] technological” resources, an honest look should convince anyone that they have been made possible by 150 years of cheap oil and we’re running out. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/91 "2010-09-01T11:02:02Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > I want to add (as a separate post) that the idea being currently seeded in the mass consciousness that Obama is, to quote Adhay, “Bush in blackface” (and otherwise disappointing) is nonsense. > > Let us not lose sight of what he has accomplished to date (those who seek to supplant him certainly haven’t…why do you think they are so rabid to get him out and reverse his reforms?) I see few real reforms. What exactly is our reason for being in Afghanistan? That is a rhetorical question, not a hijack. 🙂 > [@](#): > > And what is the alternative those on the left seek? (I ask as a left-leaning Independent myself who voted for Obama and still support him). Huh? Dumb-asses? 😕:smack: Aye, there ain’t no viable political alternative. That’s my point and the problem as I see it. > [@](#): > > He TOLD you he wasn’t a socialist or radical leftist…what? Did you assume he was lying, like the right did and still do? Idiots. I was hoping he was “lying” about that. Instead, he was lying (I think he was smart enough to realize it) about the feasibility of change and his being beholding to corporate America. > [@](#): > > And who is YOUR candidate? You know, the one who can keep the Republicans from re-taking power and rolling back everything Obama HAS managed to accomplish thus far and then some? Like I thought…dead silence. :rolleyes: See above. > [@](#): > > … When it comes down to a return to Republican rule or Obama (and it does, make no mistake) are you REALLY going to continue undermining OBAMA? Idiots. :smack: And I say that, effectively, it makes no difference. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/92 "2010-09-01T11:55:28Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > That weaning must include establishing local independence from imported food and fuel for traction, transport and transportation and developing local basic manufacturing. Ah, locavorism, the idea that doesn’t make any sense and would actually be vastly worse for the environment. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/93 "2010-09-01T11:59:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > That weaning must include establishing local independence from imported food and fuel for traction, transport and transportation and developing local basic manufacturing. > > Ah, locavorism, the idea that doesn’t make any sense and would actually be vastly worse for the environment. I am not a locavore but let’s end this hijack right now. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/94 "2010-09-01T12:01:23Z")
Back to the OP. I have had great a seat at _Our American Dream_ now playing at The Great American Virtual Theater in Washington, DC. Cast and production crew are corrupt and self-serving assholes, running up the public debt then charging us interest on it for their own enrichment and to the loss of society. But in a democratic republic, how does this happen? What thinking American could possibly countenance this shit. They should be booed off the stage. The key to making this corrupt charade plausible to the people is their involvement in the drama (fear)produced with sham political, social and economic tension. Get the audience jabbering among themselves and pointing fingers at each other and the play goes on. After 8 yrs of Bush, anything looked good. So much the better that he’s black and clearly progressive. Plenty of fuel for public “debate” there. Ha ha. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/95 "2010-09-01T15:55:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This week there have been several Op-Eds from people who were strong Obama supporters, which are just _scathing_ in their judgment. > > First, we have Mort Zuckerman, who was a big Obama booster, and even wrote one of his speeches. This week Mort unleashed on him: > > [The Most Fiscally Irresponsible Government in U.S. History](http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2010/08/26/the-most-fiscally-irresponsible-government-in-us-history.html) > > The conclusion: > > > [@](#): > > > > But let’s not forget, current budgetary trends are capable of destroying the country. As Bowles pointed out, according to a Washington Post report, we can’t just grow our way out of this. We can’t just tax our way out of this. We have to do what governors do—cut spending or increase revenues in some combination that will begin to pull us back from the cliff. > > > > Obama must know that if he doesn’t address this, he will be the president who drove us toward a debt crisis. And so too must Congress, for both have now participated in the most fiscally irresponsible government in American history. > > Jim Cramer, former Obama booster, goes farther in an Op-Ed in [The Street](http://www.thestreet.com/story/10837898/1/cramer-bad-data-has-silver-lining.html): > > Basically, Cramer is saying that the fear of this administration’s policies on Wall Street is so strong that many are now secretly cheering for the economy to do even worse in the short term, because it will increase the probability of damage to the Obama administration’s agenda. > > He says this isn’t a Republican view - it’s the view of ex-Obama supporters on Wall Street. > > The CEO of Intel [chimes in:](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20014563-38.html?tag=mncol;1n) > > > [@](#): > > > > **Intel CEO: U.S. faces looming tech decline** > > > > Intel Chief Executive Officer Paul Otellini offered a depressing set of observations about the economy and the Obama administration Monday evening, coupled with a dark commentary on the future of the technology industry if nothing changes. > > > > Otellini’s remarks during dinner at the Technology Policy Institute’s Aspen Forum here amounted to a warning to the administration officials and assorted Capitol Hill aides in the audience: unless government policies are altered, he predicted, “the next big thing will not be invented here. Jobs will not be created here.” > > > > The U.S. legal environment has become so hostile to business, Otellini said, that there is likely to be “an inevitable erosion and shift of wealth, much like we’re seeing today in Europe–this is the bitter truth.” > > … > > Otellini singled out the political state of affairs in Democrat-dominated Washington, saying: “I think this group does not understand what it takes to create jobs. And I think they’re flummoxed by their experiment in Keynesian economics not working.” > > > > Since an unusually sharp downturn accelerated in late 2008, the Obama administration and its allies in the U.S. Congress have enacted trillions in deficit spending they say will create an economic stimulus but have not extended the Bush tax cuts and have pushed to levy extensive new health care and carbon regulations on businesses. > > > > “They’re in a ‘Do’ loop right now trying to figure out what the answer is,” Otellini said. > > > > As a result, he said, “every business in America has a list of more variables than I’ve ever seen in my career.” If variables like capital gains taxes and the R&D tax credit are resolved correctly, jobs will stay here, but if politicians make decisions “the wrong way, people will not invest in the United States. They’ll invest elsewhere.” > > > > Take factories. “I can tell you definitively that it costs $1 billion more per factory for me to build, equip, and operate a semiconductor manufacturing facility in the United States,” Otellini said. > > > > The rub: Ninety percent of that additional cost of a $4 billion factory is not labor but the cost to comply with taxes and regulations that other nations don’t impose. > > This matches my perception as well - businesses aren’t investing because they perceive Washington as being hostile to them. The non-stop flood of regulations, proposed regulations, proposed taxes, and other interventions by the Obama administration, coupled with the constant-anti-business posturing of Obama, has shaken their confidence and made it impossible for them to know what the future business environment will look like. > > That’s a major reason why the U.S. economy has stalled while the rest of the world is recovering. > > Comments? A few threads and a couple of weeks ago you finally accepted that the recession was down to a drop in demand. Now you’re back to claiming that “lack of investment” is down to “uncertainty” again, and citing two CEOs whose job it is to lobby for policies to make their businesses more profitable and some clown from CNBC who has a track record that makes yours look good. The first guy, Zuckerman, has this to say : The predilection to blame business was manifest in one of President Barack Obama’s recent speeches. He was supposed to be seeking the support of the business community for a doubling of exports over the next five years. Instead he lashed out at “unscrupulous and underhanded businesses, who are unencumbered by any restriction on activities that might harm the environment, take advantage of middle-class families, or, as we’ve seen, threaten to bring down the entire financial system.” This kind of gratuitous and overstated demonisation – widely seen in the business community as a resort to economic populism on the part of Mr Obama to shore up the growing weakness in his political standing – is exactly the wrong approach. Now here’s what Obama actually said : Too much regulation or too much spending can stifle innovation, can hamper confidence and growth, and hurt business and families. A government that does too little can be just as irresponsible as a government that does too much — because, for example, in the absence of sound oversight, responsible businesses are forced to compete against unscrupulous and underhanded businesses, who are unencumbered by any restrictions on activities that might harm the environment, or take advantage of middle-class families, or threaten to bring down the entire financial system. That’s bad for everybody. And of course you can grow your way out of debt, that’s exactly how America got out of its big WW2 debt overhang. Then you’ve got Cramer, who’s a clown, then you’ve quoted some McCain supporter who like you is just spouting conservative boilerplate. Finally, let’s look at actual investment recently : [http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/why-isnt-investment-higher/](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/why-isnt-investment-higher/) It’s actually surprising how well investment levels have held up due to the massive increase in excess capacity that’s been created by the meltdown caused by eight years of pro-growth business-friendly policies that the three guys you quoted in the OP have all supported. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/96 "2010-09-01T16:00:14Z")
> [@erez](#): > > > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > > > This myth that business is suffering isn’t true at all. Employees are suffering, business is doing great. I don’t know why/where this myth that business is struggling came from, they have more capital and profitability than they did before the recession. > > Please let me know how you reconcile your opinion that businesses are doing great with the following data: > [Caseload Statistics Data Tables](http://www.uscourts.gov/Statistics/BankruptcyStatistics.aspx) contains year-by-year business bankruptcy filing data and their news releases contain month-by-month breakdowns. In Q2 2010 there were 14,452 filings. Before the recession, in Q2 2007, there were 6,765 filings. We are still up by 114%. > > This is a separate topic and there are many factors at play. First you may want to read this analysis from the NY Times: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/world/europe/14germany.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/world/europe/14germany.html). > > and this op-ed: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/opinion/27brooks.html?\_r=1&hp:](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/opinion/27brooks.html?_r=1&hp:) > If you are still supporting Germany’s answer to the recession, you are going against American liberal economists who fiercely attacked it and held it up as an example of what not do. Here is what Krugman said: > > > [@Krugman](#): > > > > In short, there’s a huge multiplier effect at work; unfortunately, what it’s doing is multiplying the impact of the current German government’s boneheadedness. > > Oops. Here’s the FT on Germany : The improvement in Germany’s economic growth is driven not by productivity gains but by real devaluation.So while I expect the [German economy](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/916178f0-89a2-11df-9ea6-00144feab49a.html) to perform better than the eurozone average, it is important to keep some perspective and not draw false inferences from the 9 per cent annualised growth rate during the second quarter. If you look at the period since the beginning of the financial crisis, Germany’s economic performance has been dismal. If you compare levels of gross domestic product between Germany and the US since the crisis, you find the US significantly outperformed Germany during that period. That situation may still be reversed if the US were to go into a double-dip recession. But the best judgment we can make now is that of [Christine Lagarde](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/225bbcc4-2f82-11df-9153-00144feabdc0.html), the French finance minister, in her recent interview in the Financial Times: Germany is recovering faster this year because it contracted faster last year, when GDP fell by 5 per cent. So far, this looks like classic dead-cat bounce. > **[Germany’s rebound is no cause for cheer](https://www.ft.com/content/2becafc4-b398-11df-81aa-00144feabdc0)** > > Country is recovering faster this year because it contracted faster last year It’s also worth noting that the German economy is benefitting from a fiscal stimulus of 2% of GDP this year. Austerity measures won’t filter into their economic numbers until next year. As a general rule the effect of fiscal stimulus in economys around the world has been resounding success. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/97 "2010-09-01T16:03:32Z")
Here are the OECD numbers showing the relative levels of fiscal stimulus in the US and German economys over the last couple of years : [http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/david-brooks-takes-advantage-of-affirmative-action-for-conservatives](http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/david-brooks-takes-advantage-of-affirmative-action-for-conservatives) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/98 "2010-09-01T17:44:03Z")
Well, things stared going to hell when Obama rammed TARP down our throats! ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/99 "2010-09-01T17:54:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, things stared going to hell when Obama rammed TARP down our throats! Oh, please. Things started going to hell (again) when the banks took over the Fed. That would have been in 1913. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839/100 "2010-09-01T18:27:21Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@elucidator](#): > > > > Well, things stared going to hell when Obama rammed TARP down our throats! > > Oh, please. > > Things started going to hell (again) when the banks took over the Fed. That would have been in 1913. Yeah, everything was fine before 1913. Except for, you know, the massive super-recessions and bank panics that happened constantly. But other than that it was great! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/harsh-commentary-from-ex-obama-supporters/551839.md?page=6)