# Has a rampaging nut been killed/stopped by armed civilians **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767 "2004-12-14T11:41:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/1 "2004-12-14T11:41:04Z")
Hi, on another board we’re having a discussion about gun control etc. It has come up that a possible plus to having guns in the hands of the public is that they could take out the guys who loose it and go on a rampage at work, in a McDonalds etc. Has this ever happened in the US? I’m not talking about burglars or muggers I’m talking about people like [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/19/newsid_2534000/2534669.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/2 "2004-12-14T12:50:59Z")
Umm… board wars are frowned upon, you know. You were given two examples there, one with cites. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/3 "2004-12-14T12:55:12Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… board wars are frowned upon, you know. You were given two examples there, one with cites. It’s not a board war. We were unable to think of an example off the top of our heads on the other board, so we thought we’d open up the question to a wider audience. There’s no dogs nor even a fight in this one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/4 "2004-12-14T13:03:29Z")
A board war would be where the participants of a separate board began trolling this one. Since 90% of us are already members here, I don’t think that’s going to happen. As to the OP, if the person was taken out by an armed member of the public before they committed the massacre, then you’d never know if they were going to be a mass murderer, surely? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/5 "2004-12-14T13:18:26Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… board wars are frowned upon, you know. You were given two examples there, one with cites. I’m asking a question to a wider audience. I didn’t even give a link to the other thread. The cite I was given was to the the Dalton Bros in 1887 and a robbery of a gunshop. Any better examples from a recent event (within the last 50 years say) ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/6 "2004-12-14T13:46:45Z")
[Here’s one relatively recent.](http://johnrlott.tripod.com/apla2.html) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/7 "2004-12-14T14:09:32Z")
That’s the kind of thing I’m looking for **BF** thanks a lot. Although it was an off duty cop who pulled the gun it’s still closer that anything I’ve seen so far. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/8 "2004-12-14T14:12:27Z")
> [@BF](#): > > [Here’s one relatively recent.](http://johnrlott.tripod.com/apla2.html) Except that he was subdued by being tackled, not by being shot (although one of the people who subdued him had a gun and pointed it at him). ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/9 "2004-12-14T14:19:54Z")
Ah but the gun in question led to him being subdued > [@](#): > > "We went down, too, and Peter was in the front yard. I stopped at my vehicle and got a handgun, a revolver. Ted went toward Peter, and I aimed my gun at him, and Peter tossed his gun down. However as I said it wasn’t a member of the public it was a trained cop who pulled the gun and acted. Everyone, I’m not looking to debate this BTW I’m just looking for instances. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/10 "2004-12-14T14:27:40Z")
The tower shooter at the University of Texas (?) was killed by an armed civilian. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/11 "2004-12-14T14:48:29Z")
[This shooter?](http://www.utexas.edu/tours/mainbuilding/news/reopen/nytimes111798.html) > [@](#): > > n Aug. 1, 1966, Charles Whitman, a student at the university, barricaded himself on the observation deck and began shooting passers-by with a rifle. At the time, the shooting was the nation’s worst mass killing. It lasted 93 minutes, **ending with Mr. Whitman’s being killed by the police** Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/12 "2004-12-14T15:06:02Z")
Armed civilians were involved: > [@](#): > > As more victims fell, police officers made their various ways to the Tower. Austin Police Officers Jerry Day, Houston McCoy, and Ramiro Martinez, Department of Public Safety Officer W.A. Cowan, civilian Allen Crum and others converged on the 27th floor. > > … > > Ramirez emerged onto the deck, and began crawling toward the northwest corner, where the shots seemed to be coming from. McCoy followed, while Crum and Day guarded the door. As Charlie tried to change position, Crum misfired his gun, sending him back to the northwest corner. There he sat with his back against the north wall, aiming his carbine toward the south, from whence Crum’s shot had come. Martinez and McCoy continued their slow crawl, friendly fire from the ground zinging around them. When Martinez reached the northeast corner, he rounded it and began firing his .38. Charlie tried to return fire but could not bring his weapon around in time. McCoy fired his shotgun twice at Charlie’s head, knocking him to the floor. Martinez then grabbed McCoy’s gun and ran toward Charlie’s twitching body, firing into it point blank. At 1:24 p.m. Charlie was dead. But, as you can see, it was the police officers who killed him. [Link](http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/whitman/tower_6.html?sect=8) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/13 "2004-12-14T15:15:28Z")
I’m not a member anymore, but while I was, I know of at least one NRA magazine that ran a monthly column called “The Armed Citizen” that contained accounts of, you guessed it, armed citizens using firearms to protect themselves or others from crime. The current column is [here](http://www.nrapublications.org/armed%20citizen/index.asp). The problem with a question like this is: if you stop them early enough, how do you know whether the event was just planned as a single homicide, or if it was a murderous rampage nipped in the bud? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/14 "2004-12-14T15:17:39Z")
Cheers for that. I’ll have a look at that site. ---
**Author:** ![olefin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d78d45/32.png) [@olefin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olefin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/15 "2004-12-14T16:10:01Z")
I know this is not exactly what the OP asked but this is an example of a civilian using his weapon to save an officer’s life. Several years back… On some divided roads in Texas they have road side rest areas or tables on each side of the road. A Texas DPS trooper had stopped to check out a guy at a rest area, they got in a scuffle, the guy got the jump on the trooper and took the troopers gun away from him. It was during deer hunting season, so happen a deer hunter was stopped at the rest area across the road, he saw it all happen and that the guy had the trooper on the ground was holding a gun on him. The deer hunter used his gun with a scope, fired, killing the guy that was holding the gun on the trooper. The hunter saved the troopers life for the guy was getting ready to shoot the trooper for he was already wanted by the law. The hunter asked that his name not be put in the news and it wasn’t, nor was any charges filed against the hunter. I am familiar with this area. Later the mother of the thug living in California filed a law suit on the hunter but a judge threw it out. Our news media usually puts stories of citizens using their weapons for defense on the back pages, if it is even mention. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/16 "2004-12-14T16:14:36Z")
The guys on that other site must not be very good at googling, because I googled “defensive gun use”, and hit about a hundred different accounts, such as [this one.](http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2004/12/13robberfleeswhen.html) I’m pretty sure one of the school shootings was stopped by a civilian armed with a gun. Can’t find a cite now, but I remember it because a number of pro-gun commentators were pissed off that almost no mainstream media reported it. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/17 "2004-12-14T16:20:58Z")
Getting very many great cites for this kind of thing will be difficult, because the presence of a gun in the hands of a “good guy” commonly diffuses a situation before shots any are even fired. Such incidents don’t make news, and aren’t citable. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/18 "2004-12-14T17:08:02Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The guys on that other site must not be very good at googling, because I googled “defensive gun use”, and hit about a hundred different accounts, such as [this one.](http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2004/12/13robberfleeswhen.html). I think the OP was specifically looking for “rampage” situations, not foiled robberies, muggings, etc. And preferably examples involving ordinary citizens, not police (or off-duty police). That makes looking for examples a bit more difficult. > [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure one of the school shootings was stopped by a civilian armed with a gun. Can’t find a cite now, but I remember it because a number of pro-gun commentators were pissed off that almost no mainstream media reported it. That sounds more along the right lines. > [@bordelond](#): > > Getting very many great cites for this kind of thing will be difficult, because the presence of a gun in the hands of a “good guy” commonly diffuses a situation before shots any are even fired. Such incidents don’t make news, and aren’t citable. Point, although “commonly” is part of the issue we’re attempting to ascertain. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/19 "2004-12-14T18:22:24Z")
From here: [http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/murder1.html](http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/murder1.html) Howard Unruh killed 13 in 1949. > [@](#): > > “A tavern owner shot Unruh in the thigh from a second-story window, but Unruh continued walking. He then went to the house of a family that bothered him killing three.” So that didn’t stop the rampage, but it was an armed civilian response. Carl Brown killed 8. > [@](#): > > Unhappy with the work done on his lawn mower, Carl Brown returned to a Miami machine shop and shot eight people. He then walked out the back door and rode his bicycle back home. Two witnesses chased after him, shot him down and ran him over with their car to make sure he was dead. So this is one that was stopped by an armed (and vehicled) civilian response. Completely unrelated but I found this one interesting: "Yang Mingxin (9) An axe-wielding farmer in northwestern China hacked nine people to death in a dispute over 10 geese. Yang Mingxin, 39, from Chenggu county in northwestern Shaanxi province killed nine fellow villagers and injured three others in a fit of rage on June 23. The oldest victim was aged 71 while the youngest was a four-month-old baby girl. The problem started when Yang had refused to sell 10 stolen geese for fellow villager Guo Baoning. Unable to find his intended victim Guo, Yang attempted suicide by hanging himself and drinking insecticide after the massacre but was rushed to hospital and saved." ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767/20 "2004-12-14T19:15:00Z")
I could cite [Kim du Toit’s](http://www.kimdutoit.com/dr/weblog.php) weblog, but that was ignored in The Other Place. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-rampaging-nut-been-killed-stopped-by-armed-civilians/279767.md?page=2)