# Has a Thorium Powered Nuclear Reactor Ever Been Built? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 28, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426 "2007-12-28T00:57:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/1 "2007-12-28T00:57:28Z")
I once read that thorium (another radioactive element) could be used as a nuclear fuel. Has anyone ever actually bilt a reactor that used it? Thorium is supposed to be pretty abundant-is there more of it around than uranium? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/2 "2007-12-28T01:31:31Z")
[Sort of.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn) > [@](#): > > David Hahn (born 1976) is a man known for his attempt to build a fast breeder nuclear reactor in 1994 in his backyard shed in Commerce Township, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit, at the age of 17. > > … > > Hahn posed as an adult scientist or professor to gain the trust of many professionals in letters, despite the presence of misspellings and obvious errors in his letters to them. Hahn ultimately hoped to create a breeder reactor, using low-level isotopes to transform samples of thorium and uranium into fissionable isotopes. > > Although his home-made reactor never achieved criticality, it ended up emitting toxic levels of radioactivity, likely well over 1000 times normal background radiation. Alarmed, Hahn began to dismantle his experiments, but a chance encounter with police led to the discovery of his activities, which triggered a Federal Radiological Emergency Response involving the FBI and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. The United States Environmental Protection Agency, having designated Hahn’s mother’s property as a Superfund hazardous materials cleanup site, dismantled the shed and its contents and buried them as low-level radioactive waste in Utah. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/3 "2007-12-28T01:35:29Z")
As I understand it, Thorium itself is all isotope 232, which like U-238 is metastable, with a half-life measured in the billions of years. It is not itself “fissionable” – in the specialized atomic-energy meaning of the term, meaning “susceptible enough to natural neutron bombardment to enter into an energy-producing chain reaction.” However, exposed to “slow” neutrons in a breeder reactor, it absorbs a neutron to form Th-233, which beta-decays to U-233, which **is** fissionable, and a reactor fuel. My impression is that this process is not being done for precisely the same reasons as Pu-239, the other easily-created reactor “fuel” is not being produced. ---
**Author:** ![karstedm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@karstedm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/karstedm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/4 "2007-12-28T02:03:14Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] [Sort of.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn) [/QUOTE] To read more of this astounding story, pick up a copy of the “Radioactive Boy Scout” by Ken Silverstein. Nobody will ever know just how close he really came to… What? Annihilation? Because as he said: “The garbage got the good stuff. The EPA got the garbage.” He was (is?) an amazing individual. A good read for a snowy Sunday (I just read it for the 2nd time) tom ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/5 "2007-12-28T05:01:59Z")
Outside of research reactors, I don’t think there are any operational thorium reactors. It’s cheaper to do it the uranium way for the time being. I believe that there is interest in the thorium fuel cycle in India which is especially rich in thorium. FWIW, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/6 "2007-12-28T05:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=karstedm] He was (is?) an amazing individual. [/QUOTE] He’s apparently having some [legal difficulties](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292111,00.html) of late, and possibly still persuing his old hobby. I vaguley recall the US tried to build a thorium bomb at one point, but don’t remember the details. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/7 "2007-12-28T14:24:17Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] He’s apparently having some [legal difficulties](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292111,00.html) of late, and possibly still persuing his old hobby. I vaguley recall the US tried to build a thorium bomb at one point, but don’t remember the details. [/QUOTE] Rumor has it his health problems may be more severe than his legal ones. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/8 "2007-12-28T17:59:22Z")
[QUOTE=karstedm] [David Hahn] was (is?) an amazing individual. [/QUOTE] No, he was a village idiot playing about with something that he didn’t really understand. There’s an old thread in which someone who actually served on a Navy ship discussed his questionable understanding of science and math (I believe he was trying to impress a female ensign about his “researches” into the quadratic equations. :rolleyes: ) Regarding thorium reactors, **Polycarp** has it essentially correct, although the reasons for not producing [sup]239[/sup]Pu have more to do with the complex control and fuel processing steps required to keep from producing higher plutonium isotopes and the proliferation risk. Right now it is significantly cheaper and easier–and the technology is well established–to mine natural uranium and enrich it to fuel grade levels rather than breed fissile [sup]233[/sup]U from [sup]232[/sup]Th. Because of its relatively short half-life and high fissability, [sup]233[/sup]U is also less desireable as a fuel than fuel-grade HEU, and the breeding reaction has to be carefully monitors to prevent side reactions from absorbing too many neutrons and producing [sup]234[/sup]U. Only nations like India or Norway without significant sources of natural uranium are really interested in thorium reactors, though there was in the early days of nuclear power significant interest in thorium breeder reactors. A number of research reactors were built in the US and possibly the USSR and France for breeding thorium into fissile isotopes, and I believe there was at least one commercial US breeder that used thorium fuel for a time before being converted to a more conventional light water reactor. [Here](http://ergobalance.blogspot.com/2007/07/norway-and-thorium.html) is a nice, brief, and not too technical discussion about the difficulties of breeding fissile fuel from thorium. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Nuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea666f/32.png) [@Nuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nuke)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/9 "2007-12-28T18:17:29Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] …I believe there was at least one commercial US breeder that used thorium fuel for a time before being converted to a more conventional light water reactor. [/QUOTE] That reactor was Shippingport in Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![DDearborn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@DDearborn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DDearborn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/10 "2011-06-14T13:47:43Z")
I realize this is an old thread but current events bring it back into focus Westinghouse Corp had a WORKING thorium reactor in operation during the 1970’s. It was ultimately shut down for a variety of reasons. None of these reasons were in the best interests of the Citizens of the United States. Benefactors included the usual suspects; big oil, big coal, competing nuclear power companies. The US military nuclear weapons programs. One could make a valid argument that if the US government and the financial elites in the US had not conspired against the American people and allowed this technology to mature the human race would not be facing extermination from radioactive fall out. Fall out that has been magnified 10 fold because the complex was also Japan’s primary nuclear weapons facility. Thorium nuclear power technology has been around for 50 YEARS. It was shut down because it was far to cheap, safe and didn’t not allow for nuclear weapons production. Another sterling example of advanced technology that could have benefited all of man kind hidden away so a few really really rich and powerful people could get even richer and more powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/11 "2011-06-14T14:43:41Z")
Oh dear, I’m all out of tin foil. I wonder if placing a colander on my head will block the government mind control rays. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/12 "2011-06-14T14:56:13Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Oh dear, I’m all out of tin foil. I wonder if placing a colander on my head will block the government mind control rays. You realize that the conspiracy began when the GovernmentCommieFascists forced all the tin foil manufacturers out of business because it knew their power. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/13 "2011-06-14T16:33:22Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Oh dear, I’m all out of tin foil. I wonder if placing a colander on my head will block the government mind control rays. > > Stranger If the holes in the colander are bigger than the wavelength of the N rays they are using yer screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/14 "2011-06-14T16:37:56Z")
Maybe he can wear TWO colanders. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/15 "2011-06-14T17:10:14Z")
That might be a strain on his brain. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/16 "2011-06-14T17:17:10Z")
You DID NOT just post that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/17 "2011-06-14T20:48:36Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > That might be a strain on his brain. Which is mainly on the plain. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/18 "2011-06-14T21:15:55Z")
Ok, but I did read in Scientific American a couple years ago that thorium was abandoned because it didn’t make plutonium and in the early days of reactors, it was thought that there would a large demand for plutonium for nuclear bombs. Perhaps that was written by a tin-hat guy, but maybe some doper knows. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/19 "2011-06-14T21:16:26Z")
> [@DDearborn](#): > > Fall out that has been magnified 10 fold because the complex was also Japan’s primary nuclear weapons facility. Japan has no nuclear weapons program and never has. If they do it’d be incredibly covert and not something they’d ever admit to and you’d certainly never hear about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426/20 "2011-06-14T21:20:37Z")
> [@DDearborn](#): > > I realize this is an old thread but current events bring it back into focus > Westinghouse Corp had a WORKING thorium reactor in operation during the > 1970’s. It was ultimately shut down for a variety of reasons. None of these > reasons were in the best interests of the Citizens of the United States. Benefactors > included the usual suspects; big oil, big coal, competing nuclear power companies. > The US military nuclear weapons programs. > > One could make a valid argument that if the US government and the financial elites > in the US had not conspired against the American people and allowed this technology to mature the human race would not be facing extermination from radioactive fall out. > Fall out that has been magnified 10 fold because the complex was also Japan’s primary > nuclear weapons facility. > > Thorium nuclear power technology has been around for 50 YEARS. It was shut down because it was far to cheap, safe and didn’t not allow for nuclear weapons production. Another sterling example of advanced technology that could have benefited all of man kind hidden away so a few really really rich and powerful people could get even richer and more powerful. BWA-HA-HA-Ha! \ \ No. Really. What?🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-thorium-powered-nuclear-reactor-ever-been-built/431426.md?page=2)