# Has a vice-president ever run against a U.S. president? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545 "2019-07-05T01:36:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/21 "2019-07-07T02:51:33Z")
Since the OP has been answered, is it clear how the following scenario works? : Say Pence dies tomorrow. Trump nominates Nikki Haley as VP. Before one or both houses can confirm Haley, Trump dies. According to the succession act, Pelosi as Speaker of the House “acts” as president. 1. May she withdraw Haley’s name? 2. May she nominate herself as VP knowing that she will then “become” a full president? 3. May she simply refuse to nominate a VP at all because she wants to keep the job and is unsure about her chances of success in Congress? 4. May the Senate filibuster a VP nominee according to its rules even though the 25th Amendment specifies a majority vote? 5. Is she even empowered to nominate a VP as the 25th only says that “the President” can do so and Pelosi would only be “acting” as such? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/22 "2019-07-07T02:56:55Z")
An incumbent Vice President could run against “his” President in the primaries of their party, with the near-certainty that he wouldn’t be kept on the ticket for November if he fell short. It’s possible but extremely unlikely that he might win the nomination of their party from the incumbent President who selected him as a running mate in the first place. I _suppose_ it could happen if there were a very unpopular President and a very popular VP, but it’s pretty farfetched. Some states have “sore loser” laws that would keep the soon-to-be ex-VP off the ballot as an independent or as the nominee of another party in November, if he lost his original party’s nomination in the primaries. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/23 "2019-07-08T20:21:41Z")
**UltraVires** , I’m pretty sure that the same language is used for a Speaker of the House succeeding to the Presidency as for a Vice President. So in the same way that, after Lincoln’s death, Andrew Johnson was really, truly, completely The President, if Pence and Trump both died in short order, Pelosi would be really, truly, completely The President. She would then be just as capable of nominating a Vice President as any other President who faced a vacancy in that position, and if her choice were confirmed, that person (whoever it might be) would become President if and only if something happened to remove Pelosi from the office. If President Pelosi remained without a Vice President for whatever reason (she didn’t nominate one, or her nominee wasn’t confirmed), then the succession would continue, most likely to whoever the House chose as their new Speaker (or, if they didn’t have a chance for that, to the President Pro Tem of the Senate, and thence to the various cabinet secretaries). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/24 "2019-07-08T20:37:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **UltraVires** , I’m pretty sure that the same language is used for a Speaker of the House succeeding to the Presidency as for a Vice President. So in the same way that, after Lincoln’s death, Andrew Johnson was really, truly, completely The President, if Pence and Trump both died in short order, Pelosi would be really, truly, completely The President. She would then be just as capable of nominating a Vice President as any other President who faced a vacancy in that position, and if her choice were confirmed, that person (whoever it might be) would become President if and only if something happened to remove Pelosi from the office. If President Pelosi remained without a Vice President for whatever reason (she didn’t nominate one, or her nominee wasn’t confirmed), then the succession would continue, most likely to whoever the House chose as their new Speaker (or, if they didn’t have a chance for that, to the President Pro Tem of the Senate, and thence to the various cabinet secretaries). > [@Constitution Article 1](#): > > In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected. \*underlining added. It is pretty clear, and IIRC universally believed that anyone downline of the Vice President does not become president but merely “acts” as such. When Tyler, the first VP to succeed to the presidency, was put in that spot, there was considerable debate on whether he was a full president or merely acting as such. He contended that he was a full president and that remained custom until the 25th Amendment spelled it out: > [@25th Amendment](#): > > In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President. But linguistically it still seems pretty clear that downline officers only act as president. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/25 "2019-07-08T20:39:05Z")
When Gerald Ford became President after Nixon resigned, (Democratic) Speaker of the House Carl Albert was next in line to succeed Ford for four months until Congress confirmed Nelson Rockefeller as the new VP. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/26 "2019-07-08T20:45:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But linguistically it still seems pretty clear that downline officers only act as president. Downline officers (the Speaker of the House and President Pro-Tempore of the Senate) are forbidden from holding two offices simultaneously by Article 1 Section 6 of the Constitution. > [@](#): > > No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office. Nor could they be appointed a Federal judge. And Ford had to resign from the House so he could become Vice President. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/27 "2019-07-08T20:46:47Z")
So, I guess part of my question is suppose Pelosi “acts” as president because of the short order death or resignation of both Trump and Pence. She then nominates Cory Booker as VP and he is confirmed by both the House and Senate. Now we have a situation where we have a Vice President, who is under no “inability” (and obviously no removal, death or resignation), so therefore Booker should become The President, no? If that is the case, the Pelosi can hold onto the powers of the presidency by simply refusing to nominate a VP. If not, it would certainly seem strange to have a person below the line of succession holding the powers and “acting” as president when someone above them in the line is there, ready, and available. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/28 "2019-07-08T20:48:33Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Downline officers (the Speaker of the House and President Pro-Tempore of the Senate) are forbidden from holding two offices simultaneously by Article 1 Section 6 of the Constitution. > > Nor could they be appointed a Federal judge. > > And Ford had to resign from the House so he could become Vice President. I’m not sure what you mean. I’m not saying that Pelosi could both act as president while remaining the Speaker of the House. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/29 "2019-07-08T21:04:35Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > \*underlining added. It is pretty clear, and IIRC universally believed that anyone downline of the Vice President does not become president but merely “acts” as such. My guess is that the intention was that any such person could go back to being whatever office holder they were before they had to act as president. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/30 "2019-07-10T00:19:48Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Now we have a situation where we have a Vice President, who is under no “inability” (and obviously no removal, death or resignation), so therefore Booker should become The President, no? Not the way I read the law. The law says: > [@](#): > > An individual acting as President . . . shall continue to act until the expiration of the then current Presidential term, except that—if his discharge of the powers and duties of the office is founded in whole or in part on the inability of the President or Vice President, then he shall act only until the removal of the disability of one of such individuals. In your scenario, Pelosi’s acting as President would not be founded on “inability”, it would be founded on the death or resignation of the two previous incumbents. She would serve until the expiration of the term. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545/31 "2019-07-10T02:30:46Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So, I guess part of my question is suppose Pelosi “acts” as president because of the short order death or resignation of both Trump and Pence. She then nominates Cory Booker as VP and he is confirmed by both the House and Senate. > > Now we have a situation where we have a Vice President, who is under no “inability” (and obviously no removal, death or resignation), so therefore Booker should become The President, no? If that is the case, the Pelosi can hold onto the powers of the presidency by simply refusing to nominate a VP. If not, it would certainly seem strange to have a person below the line of succession holding the powers and “acting” as president when someone above them in the line is there, ready, and available. **UltraVires** I suggest you read Section IV of the 25th Amendment. It’s not very long. > [@](#): > > Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. > > Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office. Under your scenario, either Nancy Pelosi is President, and she can nominate whoever she wants to be VP, or she is not President and can’t nominate anyone. But even if she is only an “acting President” Vice President Booker and a majority of Cabinet members can petition Congress to remove her by a 2/3 vote from each House. And if Acting President Pelosi has the support of the Vice President, a majority of Cabinet members, and a 2/3 majority of both Houses of Congress, then for all intents and purposes she IS the President of the U.S. and even if she had never chosen a Vice President, the worst that would happen is that the nation will stumble along with the new Speaker of the House or the President Pro Tempore of the Senate being next in line until Pelosi finishes the remainder of her term. Or, 51% of the House and 2/3 of the Senate votes to impeach and convict her, she’ll be out of the White House whether she’s “acting” or “real.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-vice-president-ever-run-against-a-u-s-president/836545.md?page=1)