# Has a white couple ever had a black baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 3, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685 "2007-12-03T18:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/21 "2007-12-04T18:24:27Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] This is news to me. What features would these be? [/QUOTE] There are multiple genes that contribute to skin coloration, and multiple alleles for each gene. Most of these alleles are co-dominant. This is pretty obvious; the child of a pure European and a pure sub-Saharan African is virtually always intermediate in coloration rather than resembling either parent. Of course, brown eye color is also dominant over blue. Not that many “whites” don’t have brown eyes, but that someone with blue eyes is less likely to be perceived as “black” (depending on skin color and other features, of course). I believe that hair type is also co-dominant; at least, bi-racial individuals I know have hair intermediate between the parental types (wavy European vs frizzy African). Really, all you have to do is look at any bi-racial child. In most cases, they are intermediate in most features to the parents, that is, the genes are co-dominant. In a few, such as brown eyes, the type more typical of Africans is dominant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/22 "2007-12-04T18:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] Tiger’s father Earl Wood’s ancestry is half African, a quarter Chinese, and a quarter Native American, making Tiger’s ancestry a quarter African, and his daughter’s ancestry one-eighth African. [/QUOTE] Earl is half African-American, not half African. Big difference. He could easily be less than 25% African, by descent. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/23 "2007-12-04T18:31:39Z")
True. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/24 "2007-12-04T18:43:42Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] There are multiple genes that contribute to skin coloration, and multiple alleles for each gene. Most of these alleles are co-dominant. This is pretty obvious; the child of a pure European and a pure sub-Saharan African is virtually always intermediate in coloration rather than resembling either parent. Of course, brown eye color is also dominant over blue. Not that many “whites” don’t have brown eyes, but that someone with blue eyes is less likely to be perceived as “black” (depending on skin color and other features, of course). I believe that hair type is also co-dominant; at least, bi-racial individuals I know have hair intermediate between the parental types (wavy European vs frizzy African). Really, all you have to do is look at any bi-racial child. In most cases, they are intermediate in most features to the parents, that is, the genes are co-dominant. In a few, such as brown eyes, the type more typical of Africans is dominant. [/QUOTE] I suspect that \*\*YWTF \*\*was only concerned with the “dominant” part. Wouldn’t it be incorrect to say that brown eyes are associated with African appearance? After all, most Europeans have brown eyes (even if that is not true of Northern Europeans). Blue or Green eyes might be associated with European ancestry, but brown eyes tell you next to nothing about a person’s ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/25 "2007-12-04T18:53:27Z")
What I mean when I say “black” is…well…a black person, an African American, a Colored Person. A person who sometimes has larger lips, wider nose, short, curly wire like hair and is by all intents, black. And my mistake with the whole Latino thing, I do mean a person of Spanish decent. But so far, thanks, guys ! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/26 "2007-12-04T19:06:05Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] There are multiple genes that contribute to skin coloration, and multiple alleles for each gene. Most of these alleles are co-dominant. This is pretty obvious; the child of a pure European and a pure sub-Saharan African is virtually always intermediate in coloration rather than resembling either parent. [/quote] My question wasn’t in regards to co-dominance. I was questioning your assertion about dominance and African features. I don’t know of any such features that are genetically dominant, unless we’re going to call brown eyes an African feature. That would be a little hilarious, since most folks on the planet have brown eyes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/27 "2007-12-04T19:23:02Z")
[QUOTE=diggleblop] What I mean when I say “black” is…well…a black person, an African American, a Colored Person. A person who sometimes has larger lips, wider nose, short, curly wire like hair and is by all intents, black. [/QUOTE] I think we all know what you meant by “Black”. If you try and clarify it further, you’re just going to invite more criticism. When you say “larger lips”, for example, you are implying that the “White” condition is the norm, by defining African traits in relation to European ones. Perhaps Blacks have “normally sized” lips, and Whites have smaller ones. Besides, “larger lips” isn’t an exclusively African trait. As to where you got the “short hair” from, I have no idea… ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/28 "2007-12-04T19:26:14Z")
[QUOTE=diggleblop] What I mean when I say “black” is…well…a black person, an African American, a Colored Person. [/QUOTE] Since not all black people in this world are African Americans, and your OP was not limited to Americans, I think the anthropological word you are looking for is “negroid” (cf. “caucasoid”). ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/29 "2007-12-04T19:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] When you say “larger lips”, for example, you are implying that the “White” condition is the norm, by defining African traits in relation to European ones. [/QUOTE] Not just larger lips than European. Larger than most other people in the world. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/30 "2007-12-04T21:21:17Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] Not just larger lips than European. Larger than most other people in the world. [/QUOTE] Got a cite for that? “African” covers lots of ethnic groups with lots of different physical characteristics, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/31 "2007-12-04T23:42:00Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] My question wasn’t in regards to co-dominance. I was questioning your assertion about dominance and African features. I don’t know of any such features that are genetically dominant, unless we’re going to call brown eyes an African feature. That would be a little hilarious, since most folks on the planet have brown eyes. [/QUOTE] I said “features associated with an African appearance.” Brown eyes are quite certainly associated with an African appearance, in conjunction with other features. I was not intending to indicate that such features were _uniquely_ associated with an African appearance. In fact, there really aren’t any features uniquely associated with an African appearance; South Indians, Melanesians, and Australian Aborigines have skin that may be just as dark, other groups have similar hair types, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/32 "2007-12-05T00:31:46Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] I said “features associated with an African appearance.” Brown eyes are quite certainly associated with an African appearance, in conjunction with other features. [/QUOTE] Even if we accept that brown eyes are associated with an African appearance (they are also associated with a European and Asian appearance for the same numerical-based reason, but whatever), I don’t know of any other “African features” that are dominant. They may _seem_ dominant because of the way we are programmed to recognize “blackness” vs “whiteness”, but the idea that black genes are dominant over white is commonly touted as fact in the absence of substantiation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/33 "2007-12-05T01:12:50Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] I said “features associated with an African appearance.” Brown eyes are quite certainly associated with an African appearance, in conjunction with other features. I was not intending to indicate that such features were _uniquely_ associated with an African appearance. In fact, there really aren’t any features uniquely associated with an African appearance; South Indians, Melanesians, and Australian Aborigines have skin that may be just as dark, other groups have similar hair types, and so on. [/QUOTE] But is it really even accurate to say that, even if many people do? Brown eyes are associated with those other populations that have similar features to African populations, too. I would agree that in the context of Blacks and Whites in the US that might be true, but not if we’re talking about the global population as a whole. Aren’t the genes that control eye color linked to the ones that control skin color so that if a population has dark skin, they are also going to have (predominantly) brown eyes? I know that there is some [link](http://www.hhmi.org/cgi-bin/askascientist/highlight.pl?kw=&file=answers%2Fgenetics%2Fans_044.html) between skin and hair color. BTW, I know we’re picking some nits here, but it’s an interesting topic and one that I think a lot of people get wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/34 "2007-12-05T05:07:56Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But is it really even accurate to say that, even if many people do? Brown eyes are associated with those other populations that have similar features to African populations, too. I would agree that in the context of Blacks and Whites in the US that might be true, but not if we’re talking about the global population as a whole. [/QUOTE] I assume that the whole premise of this thread is discussion of “black” in the context of the US social construct of race. “Black” of course is essentially meaningless as a racial descriptor on a global scale. So there is not a lot of point in getting into that here. In any case, all I meant to indicate was that brown eyes is a feature that a “black” person in the US is expected to have. There have been any number of threads here asking if “black” people ever have blue eyes. Of course some do; people may be subjectively viewed as black on the basis of other features than eye color. But eye color is one of many factors that go into that overall subjective evaluation. [QUOTE=you with the face] Even if we accept that brown eyes are associated with an African appearance (they are also associated with a European and Asian appearance for the same numerical-based reason, but whatever), I don’t know of any other “African features” that are dominant. They may seem dominant because of the way we are programmed to recognize “blackness” vs “whiteness”, but the idea that black genes are dominant over white is commonly touted as fact in the absence of substantiation. [/QUOTE] No, I don’t know of any other such characteristic that is dominant. When I mentioned a dominant trait, eye color was the one I had in mind. And I included that only for the reasons I have mentioned above. As I said, I never intended to indicate that was an exclusive trait of “black” people. You raise an interesting point, however. The traits associated with “blackness” are not dominant in the biological/genetic sense. However, they are (in a manner of speaking) dominant in the _social_ sense. Any evident trace of such traits in the US will cause an individual to be classified as “black,” even if phenotypically and genetically they are mostly European. ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/35 "2007-12-05T09:28:04Z")
Like brown eyes, isn’t tightly curled hair also governed by a dominant set of traits? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/36 "2007-12-05T18:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=diggleblop] Reason I ask is because the other day a Latino couple had twins, but one was white (all the characteristics of a white person) and another was Latino looking and she had all the characteristics of a Latino. [/QUOTE] “Looks white or looks Latino”, fair enough. But “all the charactertics of a Latino/white person”? Not possible. ---
**Author:** ![T.O](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@T.O](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.O)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685/37 "2007-12-06T23:37:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Is it possible that your maternal grandfather was part Native American? It’s fairly common among African Americans to have Native American ancestry mixed in. And keep in mind that most American Blacks are part European, too. I think the average is about 20%, but it can easily be 50% (or higher) and the person is often still considered Black. So, although you may think of yourself as being 25% of African descent, it’s unlikely that you are. It could easily be as low as 10%. What we call race in the US is not the same as genetic lineage. [/QUOTE] I asked my grandmother and she said that all of granddad’s family she met were black. She says two of his grandparents were dead when she met him, but both his parents were “black as night”. It’s certainly possible that he may have been 1/8 non-black, but not a significant percentage. I guess that means I’m as black as Tiger Woods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-a-white-couple-ever-had-a-black-baby/428685.md?page=1)