# Has America become a Predator State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609 "2006-12-10T22:37:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/21 "2006-12-11T13:58:35Z")
Just witnessing for the one true God, the Dollar Almighty. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/22 "2006-12-11T15:23:20Z")
Calafornia and Minnesota are the only Predator states. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/23 "2006-12-11T15:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Just witnessing for the one true God, the Dollar Almighty. [/QUOTE] Amen brother!! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/24 "2006-12-11T15:39:43Z")
[QUOTE=ParentalAdvisory] Why is that so wrong? [/QUOTE] It isn’t necessarily wrong. But not acknowledging the tragedy _every single time_ 9/11 comes up isn’t wrong either, nor is it a sign that the offender believes in some vast government conspiracy. **Leaper** ’s implication _was_ wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/25 "2006-12-11T16:02:10Z")
[QUOTE=pool] **Evil Captor** if your proposition of the U.S. is a Predator State is true, do you have any thoughts on what would be done about this? [/QUOTE] Well, the article advises a strong push for transparency in government and stronger enforcement for corruption, and tighter campaign finance laws, maybe a return to the days when TV and radio stations were forced to provide free airplay to a certain amount of election-related commercials, with some tough limits on what’s beyond that. I think we could easily build a coalition of Democratic, libertarian and fiscal conservative good-government types to push things through. Probably get a few Republicans, though they DO love that unlimited campaign financing. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/26 "2006-12-11T16:10:13Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Go to the second post, the one whose text is entitled “Lemme fix that link.” That one works for me. [/QUOTE] Sorry…missed that last night. Was a bit bleary eyed to be honest. Ok, I’ve read the article you linked too and my answer remains…no, America is not a predatory state, at least not as is meant by James K. Galbraith and you. To be honest, there isn’t much to debate in that article…its all hot air and rhetoric, and the standard left wing tripe thats been served up for decades now. Oh, there is a twist if you read between the lines…now it appears that the majority of American workers are in on the exploitation of OTHER peasants and workers around the world. I.E. it looks like the left wing has finally given up on the idea of the American worker, downtrodden and pissed off, rising up to throw off those evil industrialists…well, at least it looks like Galbraith might have in any case. 😛 > [@](#): > > The doctrines of the “law and economics” movement, now ascendant in our courts, hold that if people are rational, if markets can be “contested,” if memory is good and information adequate, then firms will adhere on their own to norms of honorable conduct. Any public presence in the economy undermines this. Even insurance—whether deposit insurance or Social Security—is perverse, for it encourages irresponsible risktaking. Banks will lend to bad clients, workers will “live for today,” companies will speculate with their pension funds; the movement has even argued that seat belts foster reckless driving. Insurance, in other words, creates a “moral hazard” for which “market discipline” is the cure; all works for the best when thought and planning do not interfere. It’s a strange vision, and if we weren’t governed by people like John Roberts and Sam Alito, who pretend to believe it, it would scarcely be worth our attention. 😛 This stuff is only a ‘strange vision’ if one’s grasp of economics is based on Marxist principals. If one bases them on economic principals that actually work then its not so strange…and ironically it helps out the greater number of people in the end. I’m sure it puzzles ole James K. Galbraith though. > [@](#): > > The idea of class struggle goes back a long way; perhaps it really is “the history of all hitherto existing society,” as Marx and Engels famously declared. But if the world is ruled by a monied elite, then to what extent do middle-class working Americans compose part of the global proletariat? The honest answer can only be: not much. The political decline of the left surely flows in part from rhetoric that no longer matches experience; for the most part, American voters do not live on the Malthusian margin. Dollars command the world’s goods, rupees do not; membership in the dollar economy makes every working American, to some degree, complicit in the capitalist class. Quite. 😉 > [@](#): > > In the mixed-economy America I grew up in, there existed a post-capitalist, post-Marxian vision of middle-class identity. It consisted of shared assets and entitlements, of which the bedrock was public education, access to college, good housing, full employment at living wages, Medicare, and Social Security. These programs, publicly provided, financed, or guaranteed, had softened the rough edges of Great Depression capitalism, rewarding the sacrifices that won the Second World War. They also showcased America, demonstrating to those behind the Iron Curtain that regulated capitalism could yield prosperity far beyond the capacities of state planning. (This, and not the arms race, ultimately brought down the Soviet empire.) These middle-class institutions survive in America today, but they are frayed and tattered from constant attack. And the division between those included and those excluded is large and obvious to all. Gods…nostalgia for the 70’s! Well, I grew up at the same time this guy did, and while I have fond memories of the 60’s, those programs NEVER worked as well as the rosy glasses lookback he’s preaching here. And they haven’t become tattered because of predator rich sucking them dry…they have become tattered because they were (by and large) deeply flawed to begin with. Social Security for instance has been on the decline for decades. > [@](#): > > Today, the signature of modern American capitalism is neither benign competition, nor class struggle, nor an inclusive middle-class utopia. Instead, predation has become the dominant feature—a system wherein the rich have come to feast on decaying systems built for the middle class. The predatory class is not the whole of the wealthy; it may be opposed by many others of similar wealth. But it is the defining feature, the leading force. And its agents are in full control of the government under which we live. This is put out as an assertion. I can’t ask good ole James, so I’ll ask the OP. What are some examples of the above to support the conclusions being drawn here? This paragraph seems central to the assertion, as he then spins off of this as if its a proven fact to go on with his theory of a predatory US. > [@](#): > > Our rulers deliver favors to their clients. These range from Native American casino operators, to Appalachian coal companies, to Saipan sweatshop operators, to the would-be oil field operators of Iraq. They include the misanthropes who led the campaign to abolish the estate tax; Charles Schwab, who suggested the dividend tax cut of 2003; the “Benedict Arnold” companies who move their taxable income offshore; and the financial institutions behind last year’s bankruptcy bill. Everywhere you look, public decisions yield gains to specific private entities. Gee…this paragraph is shocking! 😛 Its not like the stuff the left has been saying for, oh, the last 4 decades? 5? 9? Well, except change Charles Schwab to some other big tycoon of course. Anyway, this is just a sample of the stuff. I would ask the OP to read through the linked article and to try and define some of the terms the author was using (define Predator State for instance, and exactly what and who are the predatory rich) and to back up some of his assertions with some examples…otherwise I don’t see how a debate on that article or the assertion is possible. To me it sounds like the same ole same ole economic hand wringing and bemoaning of the fact that class struggle really isn’t high on the list of important things to the average (working class) America that have been coming from the left for a long time now. It smacks of folk who just don’t understand how the economy works (or WHY its working so well here in the US yet their own ideals for economic bliss don’t work so well in some of their pet countries…and worse yet, some of those pet countries have managed to turn things around by going more towards a free markets type system 😛 ). -XT ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/27 "2006-12-11T17:11:35Z")
I see the USA as rotting from within, all caused by the growth of predatory government. The cost and volume of government have soared since the 1960’s-no, Federal, State, and local taxes consume a huge share of individual income. Governemnt produces NOTHING useful by itself, it merely redistributes wealth. That partially explains illegal immigration to the US-the local people will not work for low wages-it is more beneficial to live off treansfer payments (it is estimated that welfare, AFDC, rents subsidies, food stamps, free medical insurance, etc.) wind up equalling a 40 hour workweek at \>$19.00/hour (more, because such transfer income is not taxed). Eventually, as more and more economic activity goes “underground” (and is untaxed, cash basis only), the tax burden on the legitimate business will become intolerable, and the system will crash (can’t wait for the day!). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/28 "2006-12-11T17:20:16Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Yes, there are a number of significant differences. [/quote] I was going to take this at face value and take the time to read the linked article, but then I re-read the OP and noticed (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > We’ll probably need their help, because the real genius of Karl Rove’s analysis was that with the help of retarded social conservatives… hat is was just another rant in a long line of rants. The genius of Karl Rove is his abitlity to demonize the opposition-- a skill which the OP seems to have mastered pretty well himself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/29 "2006-12-11T18:24:15Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] … (it is estimated that welfare, AFDC, rents subsidies, food stamps, free medical insurance, etc.) wind up equalling a 40 hour workweek at \>$19.00/hour (more, because such transfer income is not taxed)… [/quote] It is, is it? Estimated by whom, pray tell? > [@](#): > > …Eventually, as more and more economic activity goes “underground” (and is untaxed, cash basis only), the tax burden on the legitimate business will become intolerable, and the system will crash (can’t wait for the day!). That’ll be the day, all right. But might not that inspire the blue-helmeted and jack-booted thugs from the UN to round up all of our guns? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/30 "2006-12-11T22:06:46Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Eventually, as more and more economic activity goes “underground” (and is untaxed, cash basis only), the tax burden on the legitimate business will become intolerable, and the system will crash (can’t wait for the day!). [/QUOTE] You can’t wait for the collapse of the US economy? :rolleyes: Wow…be careful what you wish for there… :eek: -XT ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/31 "2006-12-11T22:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Just witnessing for the one true God, the Dollar Almighty. [/QUOTE] As we continue to flood the world with dollars to fund our additions to cheap imports and foreign oil, how much longer will the dollar be “mighty”? If it is even now, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/32 "2006-12-11T22:58:43Z")
I’d be interested in seeing some objective figures of the changing status of the middle class. First off, a simple definition: for purposes of discussion, let’s define the middle class as the 20% of the adult American population in the middle of the income spectrum (ie 40% of the population has less and 40% has more). What are the high and low income ranges on this fifth part? What are their total assets and total liabilities? What are their expenses? How much do they pay in taxes each year? What are their ages and family status? What is their educational, health, and housing status? How is their status today compared to what it was a year ago, five years, ten , twenty, and fifty years ago? How many of them have been in this fifth all their life and how many entered it during their lifetime (and if so, from which direction)? Anyone know where these facts can be found? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/33 "2006-12-11T23:03:09Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] how much longer will the dollar be “mighty”? If it is even now, of course. [/QUOTE] [Oil producers shun dollar](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/277471c2-8889-11db-b485-0000779e2340.html) > [@](#): > > Oil producing countries have reduced their exposure to the dollar to the lowest level in two years and shifted oil income into euros, yen and sterling, according to new data from the Bank for International Settlements. > > The revelation in the latest BIS quarterly review, published on Monday, confirms market speculation about a move out of dollars and could put new pressure on the ailing US currency. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/34 "2006-12-11T23:31:36Z")
[http://web.pdx.edu/~psu01435/wealth.html](http://web.pdx.edu/~psu01435/wealth.html) There is a discourse on this subject going on. Dismissing it by saying I got mine hardly deals with the future dangers.There are tons of articles on the net and last week I heard on the radio that 50% of the worlds wealth is in the hands of 2% of the population. It is happening. There are possible ugly repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/35 "2006-12-12T00:08:44Z")
[QUOTE=China Guy] By definition, a conservative muni can not have returns 3-4 prime. [/QUOTE] The following funds are all rated as Below Average risk, and the lowest YTD yield is 10.49. The highest is 22.50. SLASX, FDIVX, TRMCX and FSCSX. (I own two of these). I say “conservative” based on Risk as quoted on [this page.](http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/partsub/funds/snapshot.asp?Symbol=diisx&Funds=1) I own two other munis rated as Average or Above Average risk, and they’re doing pretty well, too. Of course, if you want to call a fund “conservative” based on being either a government bond fund or a tax-free municipal bond fund, then I don’t own any of those. (I mean, why bother? You can get 6% on a CD; why put it in a bond fund that invests money in some Baa rated runds?) ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/36 "2006-12-12T00:20:53Z")
[QUOTE=Rysdad] You can get 6% on a CD; why put it in a bond fund that invests money in some Baa rated runds?) [/QUOTE] What’s “runds?” The way I spell “bonds” sometimes. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/37 "2006-12-12T00:22:20Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] But be advised, predatory states almost always fail, becuase they’re not being governed, they’re being milied. [/QUOTE] As long as we’re at it, what’s “milied?” ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/38 "2006-12-12T00:42:22Z")
Jezus Christ… I’ve been saying “muni” when I meant “mutual fund” - definitely NOT “municipal fund.” That’ll probably clear up a lot of confusion. Leave it to me to contribute to, if not the Ignorance that is being fought, but at least the Confusion. I apologize muchly. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/39 "2006-12-12T00:54:00Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > First off, a simple definition: for purposes of discussion, let’s define the middle class as the 20% of the adult American population in the middle of the income spectrum (ie 40% of the population has less and 40% has more). The “middle class” is only one-fifth of the population? Are you sure that that’s the best definition for it? It does have the advantage of making it easy to use the [US Census Historical Income Tables](http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/ie1.html) arranged by quintile, though. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609/40 "2006-12-12T02:39:38Z")
Some excellent posts here, my apologies for not mixing in, but I’m feeling sickish this evening and thinking carefully takes more effort than I’ve got right now. (OK, I know some of you think “right now” is superfluous.) Anyway, I’ll check back in tomorrow when and if I feel better. Carry on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-america-become-a-predator-state/383609.md?page=3)