# Has American culture become or is it becoming too PC **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992 "2015-09-20T19:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/41 "2015-09-21T03:03:32Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Like the spine your children are growing in organized sports with no scoring, because “everyone is a winner”? Unchecked competition doesn’t make young kids tougher, and rewarding participation, when that is what you are attempting to encourage, doesn’t make kids soft. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/42 "2015-09-21T03:09:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This one is vaguely amusing: half the people here would argue that there is no such thing as race – “Race is a social construct” – and the other half would suggest that this is racist, as it denies the experience of people of various specific races. > > If there is no such thing as a “black” person, then why are there “black studies” classes? This is just flat out wrong. You do realize something can be a social construct, yet still have real, demonstrable effects, right? You’ve just made up strawmen that aren’t even asserted in a particularly logical or coherent manner. FTR, I have never seen someone who argued race is a social construct be deemed a racist solely for that argument. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/43 "2015-09-21T03:28:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > No. One doesn’t follow the other. I feel you should not make assumptions about such things if possible. Right, so as I said I hope the other person will ask, and be willing to listen to the answer. > [@](#): > > The number of people who go out of their way to not hire minorities, for example, dwarfs those who want to actively take steps to avoid hiring a democrat, for example. So while I don’t discount your experience, I don’t think it’s a particularly compelling. And if you were around here, I would not discount your experience but would be aware your reaction to the phrase is shaped by a different set of information. > [@brickbacon](#): > > This is just flat out wrong. You do realize something can be a social construct, yet still have real, demonstrable effects, right? You’ve just made up strawmen that aren’t even asserted in a particularly logical or coherent manner. > > FTR, I have never seen someone who argued race is a social construct be deemed a racist solely for that argument. Was going to say the same thing. I don’t know where people get the notion that something being a social construct somehow means it’s a fantasy to be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/44 "2015-09-21T04:11:16Z")
My personal definition of PC rhetoric does not include calling someone a nigger, faggot spic, Jew-boy or even a woman driver. Those are mainstream offenses that almost everyone can agree on. What is PC is trying to call people out for innocent expressions of thought that somehow run afoul of current leftist ideals. Those are often transient and completely arbitrary. Two examples are the terms Black versus African-American and Native American versus Indian. At certain points in the recent past leftist types decided that these historically oppressed groups needed new names and tried to enforce that usage on everyone. People that didn’t comply weren’t considered as enlightened as they were. It didn’t work. Most American blacks still prefer that term over African-American just as many Native Americans prefer the term Indian over the former. The basic problem is that most of the PC movement is driven by a small subset of white Leftists that are insufferable. I have explained this to people in those movements many times. I personally love people from all races, ethnicities and economic backgrounds. I chose my current job because I get to work and personally help with authentic people from lots of different backgrounds and they love me for it. The irony is that I am not prejudiced against any minority groups but I truly cannot stand white Leftists that practice their pseudo-religion on unwilling people. I love them and hate their supposed proponents that do much more harm than good in my opinion. Luckily I am old and established enough now where it is just an academic concern. I can just watch the bullshit fly from the stands and then do whatever I was going to do before I got subjected to yet another lecture from an overprivileged know-nothing blowhard. All of this PC bullshit rhetoric could have been summed up in the Golden Rule much more effectively but that doesn’t get you any grant money or create enough divisiveness to make that approach attractive to the extreme Left. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/45 "2015-09-21T04:16:09Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > This is just flat out wrong. You do realize something can be a social construct, yet still have real, demonstrable effects, right? You’ve just made up strawmen that aren’t even asserted in a particularly logical or coherent manner. > > FTR, I have never seen someone who argued race is a social construct be deemed a racist solely for that argument. If you’d taken into account my whole post, rather than responding only to the first part of it, you’d have seen that I explained that the apparent contradiction is actually addressed by the people who are accused of fomenting the PC movement. I was also responding to **Shagnasty** , who was the one who said that “A bunch of Dopers could get nailed for the offense” of not believing in race. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/46 "2015-09-21T04:19:27Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > . . . What is PC is trying to call people out for innocent expressions of thought that somehow run afoul of current leftist ideals. Those are often transient and completely arbitrary. . . . All groups in all societies do this: it’s how jargon is defined and enforced. Go to a British hunt club and talk about the “dogs.” Go aboard a sailing boat and talk about the “ropes.” It’s just how people do things: we separate the insiders from the outsiders by their knowledge of jargon. Do you imagine that right-wingers don’t do this? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/47 "2015-09-21T04:27:46Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > What is PC is trying to call people out for \*\*innocent \*\*expressions of thought… > [@](#): > > that somehow run afoul of current leftist ideals… > > but I truly cannot stand white Leftists that practice their pseudo-religion on unwilling people. I love them and hate their supposed proponents that do much more harm than good in my opinion. > > I can just watch the bullshit fly from the stands and then do whatever I was going to do before I got subjected to yet another lecture from an overprivileged know-nothing blowhard. > > All of this PC bullshit rhetoric… You do realize that the second concept invalidates the first, right? (refer to bolding if there is any confusion) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/48 "2015-09-21T04:33:42Z")
> [@pritrumj](#): > > i think in many places it has. Think of it like over regulation or a really unhealthy bureaucracy. You can never make enough rules to prevent people who are acting in bad faith from being destructive or regulate them into being productive. That is not to say all rules are bad, only that after a certain point they can be counter productive and energies are better spent trying to align incentives and encentives (emotional incentives/what people feel like doing). > > Words that are hurtful in some contexts and between certain people are fine in others. If someone hates you there are always going to be a million ways they can express it with their tracks covered. > > Making people liable for micro-aggressions is not the answer. The more rules you make the more jobs you make for lawyers. These days if someone hates you they can, in bad faith, try to pin you to some stigmatized group. And let me stop you right there, the answer is not to try and regulate this new problem (created by over-regulation) away. > > People need to spend less time listing things that are hurtful. They need to spend more time thinking about why people do things that are hurtful, more time thinking about why people hold beliefs that are destructive. After we figure these things out we can work on trying to solve the problem not play wack a mole with the symptoms. wham…zham…sham…zlam…wham…zham…sham…zlam…wham…zham…sham…zlam… That is the sound of my time machine wham…zham…sham…zlam…wham…zham…sham…zlam…wham…zham…sham…zlam… Now it’s 1965 I can’t believe I can’t call black people The N word any more!!! You can never legislate against hate… if people want to hate… they are going to hate. We have too many rules already!!! ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/49 "2015-09-21T04:33:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > All groups in all societies do this: it’s how jargon is defined and enforced. > > Go to a British hunt club and talk about the “dogs.” Go aboard a sailing boat and talk about the “ropes.” It’s just how people do things: we separate the insiders from the outsiders by their knowledge of jargon. > > Do you imagine that right-wingers don’t do this? Correct. Right-wingers certainly do it as well and I believe it is equally wrong. I am an Independent but I can certainly understand what people are complaining about. The term ‘PC’ generally refers to intended restrictions on speech and general behavior from the Left but I am equally opposed to it when it comes from the Far Right. It is same recipe with only slightly different ingredients. The irony is when each side can’t see that how similar they are when you strip away the supposed surface motivations. It is all authoritarian and has been going on since societies were first founded. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/50 "2015-09-21T04:40:16Z")
> [@PritrumJ](#): > > See it is this whole mindset that I am arguing against. I want to get out of these status games. Yes, you’re not racist, good for you. And you can signal it so well by shaming all the racists around you. It feels so good to feel morally superior doesn’t it. (I can just see the gears turning in your head as you try to think of clever ways to imply that i’m a racist.) Being racist is low status. Racism is largely cultural and you most likely came from a culture that made it easy for you to be non-racist. Maybe you need to check your privilege. Here i’m giving an example of the game I don’t want to play, the conversation I don’t want to have. I agree you make some good points here > [@](#): > > Here is the conversation I do want to have: > Racism is harmful and wrong so let’s think about how we can convert racists. Telling them they are evil won’t change their views. I have never seen someone shamed out of a belief. I have seen them shamed out of temporarily expressing it in certain explicit ways, but it always comes out in a hundred others. Here is where we leave any sort of consensus. The condensed version: It is 2015. If someone is still racist in 2015 the solution is not more hand holding and more patience. At this pointy social ostracism of racism becomes much more effective in implementing change. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/51 "2015-09-21T04:42:25Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You do realize that the second concept invalidates the first, right? (refer to bolding if there is any confusion) No, I don’t get it and I am not being deliberately obtuse. According to some of the published guidelines, I have been both innocent and run afowl of some of the restrictions without meaning to or even knowing such rules existed. According to some of the more severe PC guidelines, good intentions are not enough. What is the contradiction you see? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/52 "2015-09-21T04:57:27Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Correct. Right-wingers certainly do it as well and I believe it is equally wrong. I am an Independent but I can certainly understand what people are complaining about. The term ‘PC’ generally refers to intended restrictions on speech and general behavior from the Left but I am equally opposed to it when it comes from the Far Right. It is same recipe with only slightly different ingredients. > > The irony is when each side can’t see that how similar they are when you strip away the supposed surface motivations. It is all authoritarian and has been going on since societies were first founded. Actually, I think most of the left would recognize and admit we are employing social ostracism to effect change. Some may feel smug about this. However, many, or most, I believe have reached this point via frustration. It is 2015 and there is still a sufficient amount of racism and sexism that still exist in society. I think it is an appropriate and effective tactic to employ “PC Police” tactics. I’m not sure if that is a permanent solution, it might be, but I’m quite comfortable employing it for the next 5 or 10 or 20 years, however long it takes until this society no longer has a “sufficient amount of racism and sexism.” I agree it creates a climate where racist people are kind of awkward to say racist things. Isn’t that the whole point??? **Shagnasty** your comments sound like someone in 1965 trying to defend the use of the word “negro”. Maybe it had no negative connotation then, maybe it did, maybe it didn’t, I wasn’t alive in 1965. But… you seem my point. I think by 1975 it certainly did, right? I believe you, by the way, when you say you are a basically good person and like all kinds of people. I think that if you changed your views of disliking the “PC Police” you would come to see that a little social ostricsim to help effect change is not quite as bad as you make it out to be. I hope you have a god week… I was real lazy last week. Need to do better this week. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/53 "2015-09-21T05:04:33Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > No, I don’t get it and I am not being deliberately obtuse. According to some of the published guidelines, I have been both innocent and run afowl of some of the restrictions without meaning to or even knowing such rules existed. According to some of the more severe PC guidelines, good intentions are not enough. > > What is the contradiction you see? Ok, look, I am going to purposely make this example as generic as possible. Suppose the word poor took on a negative connotation. Like, severely negative. (can’t think of a better example at the time) Suppose for the sake of my example all the right wing TV and radio people and bloggers had co-opted the word for over a year to use it in a much more negative tone than it normally used to have. Well, you can honestly say you made a mistake by saying “My friend Dave is quite poor. I gave him a ride to work for 6 months and he was able to save money and get his own car”. Maybe, the new term is impoverished and not poor. So,of course you made an honest mistake by calling him poor. But to fight against not using the word poor anymore and to fight against the “PC Police” is not really a function of ignorance or innocence. It is just reluctance to change. And words do change. Look at the term “colored” at one point it was a word that was respectful. But it was co-opted to mean something else. Certainly you will agree that across decades, words can change their meaning, right? ---
**Author:** ![PritrumJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8dc957/32.png) [@PritrumJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PritrumJ)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/54 "2015-09-21T07:08:09Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Did you not show him The Pursuit of Happyness? Surely that must have worked, no? 🙂 No I was talking about someone I grew up with and had known for years. You can’t change everyone’s mind and it is not your job to try. This does not mean people can’t think about what kind of behaviors lead to people changing their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/55 "2015-09-21T11:50:15Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Like the spine your children are growing in organized sports with no scoring, because “everyone is a winner”? I don’t have children but one would have to be a pretty piss-poor parent to not be able to counter such a pathetic tactic. Have you ever encountered this for real? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/56 "2015-09-21T12:38:13Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Correct. Right-wingers certainly do it as well and I believe it is equally wrong. I am an Independent but I can certainly understand what people are complaining about. The term ‘PC’ generally refers to intended restrictions on speech and general behavior from the Left but I am equally opposed to it when it comes from the Far Right. It is same recipe with only slightly different ingredients. > > The irony is when each side can’t see that how similar they are when you strip away the supposed surface motivations. It is all authoritarian and has been going on since societies were first founded. On the left, it’s really pretty micro-authoritarian. Seriously, who are these speech enforcers, and where do I run into them, outside of the ivy-covered professors in ivy-covered walls? I think the last time I actually ran into someone who made a point about enforcing PC talk was when I used to go to a lefty health food store in Charlottesville in the early to mid 1980s. On the left, referring to minorities in the wrong way might get you called out. Annoying, perhaps, but that’s about as bad as it gets. On the right, you know the sort of thing that gets you in trouble? Claiming that climate change is real, man-made, and not an academic/leftist plot. PC is serious shit on the right, fucking up our ability as a society to respond to massively real problems. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/57 "2015-09-21T12:45:58Z")
> [@PritrumJ](#): > > Not if they are online and anonymous but in the real world there can be serious consequences to the kind of stigma you are associating them with. > > You seem like a reasonable person so my guess is you haven’t come across the kind of toxic cultures I am talking about where people play politics with micro aggressive like actions and instead of worrying about being good people everyone has to worry if they happen to be doing or saying something that could be twisted around to hurt them. > > My guess is people are overly defensive because they have been the victim of these kind of games in their real lives. When were _you_ called out & what had you said or done? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/58 "2015-09-21T17:54:18Z")
> [@PritrumJ](#): > > I half agree with your second part. I think shaming people out of expressing their beliefs did help prevent their spread and helped them die out with their holders. I think this is less effective today as people can find the ideas online. I still think even if people are more exposed to bigoted beliefs they will be less likely to adopt them if they are stigmatized and am not arguing against complete lack of stigmatized beliefs although I think it can go to far. I am arguing against a culture that is too PC sometimes stigmatizing people that don’t even hold harmful beliefs because they were targeted by some Social Justice activist who looked as someone actions without context or without knowing the person. Good point about online communities. They can be like KKK cells, just easier to get to and you don’t even have to waste a sheet. I think the extremism we see is from people hanging out in their communities and not really being aware of the arguments for other positions. An example is how religious creationists come into GD spout their nonsense, and then seem totally shocked when Dopers fire back iron clad refutations. They’ve been hanging out in their churches where strawmen prevail. I think people who really get upset about “PC” stuff are in real doubt about their opinions. I eat meat. I love meat. That is not PC but it doesn’t bother me since I’ve thought my position through and am willing to defend it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/59 "2015-09-21T19:04:33Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > . . . The irony is when each side can’t see that how similar they are when you strip away the supposed surface motivations. It is all authoritarian and has been going on since societies were first founded. Here, I must disagree. The Left is trying to be permissive, and limits only those things that infringe on permissiveness. The Right in non-permissive. i.e., the Left says, “Don’t use belittling terms for races, religious minorities, women, and so on.” the Right says, “Don’t hire races; don’t allow religious minorities to play golf at our private golf courses, don’t let women become executives of corporations.” The fallacy is still popular…and still wrong…that intolerance of intolerance is “just as bad” as intolerance of groups of people for existing. This is hogwash. It’s a million times worse to say, “You’re bad because you are black” than to say “You’re bad because you used a rude word about blacks.” ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992/60 "2015-09-21T22:10:16Z")
You can lose your job for using the word “niggardly” in a contextually-valid manner. Deny this absurdity and you are part of the problem, not the solution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-american-culture-become-or-is-it-becoming-too-pc/731992.md?page=4)