# Has an aircraft ever shot itself down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050 "2010-06-05T12:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/21 "2010-06-06T13:42:51Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > [Grumman F-11 Tiger - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-11_Tiger) > > “The F-11 Tiger is noted for being the first jet aircraft to shoot itself down. On 21 September 1956, during a test firing of its 20 mm (.79 in) cannons, pilot Tom Attridge fired two bursts mid-way through a shallow dive. As the velocity and trajectory of the cannon rounds decayed, they ultimately crossed paths with the Tiger as it continued its descent, disabling it and forcing Attridge to crash land the aircraft. The pilot survived.[1][2]” Thanks for posting this. I heard a story like this from my eighth-grade science teacher and until now I’ve never known whether I should believe it. Mr. W. was a great one for telling urban legends. He was entertaining as hell but less than perfectly reliable. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/22 "2010-06-06T14:53:45Z")
Years ago I read an account that claimed Francis S. “Gabby” Gabreski, famed WWII Thunderbolt ace, said he shot himself down. He was strafing a runway and the tracer stream suddenly hit a defecting surface at the correct angle to bounce back up into his engine. He pulled up, lost power, and made an emergency landing in German-occupied France. Supposedly this book was quoting him. But I just went to double-check that tale, and Wikipedia claims he hit the runway with his prop tips. Another page I found said he hit a small rise with his prop tips. I cannot currently tell if that means my source was unreliable, my memory is unreliable, or the well-known tendency of biographers to gloss over the mistakes of their heroes means the internet sources are glossing over the shootdown as an embarrassment. The fact that some sources add wording about “a rise” leads me to suspect excuse-making, but I will have to do more research, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/23 "2010-06-07T00:49:09Z")
My father was a bomber pilot in World War II. Gunners are supposed to fire their weapons in short bursts. On one occasion, he was flying a training mission with some very green recruits. One of them held down the trigger for much too long. The gun barrel melted. A bullet went awry, and blew a two-foot hole in one of the tailfins. Dad flew 50 combat missions, and never lost a plane or a man. Then he nearly got shot down by his own crewman. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/24 "2010-06-07T01:18:33Z")
“He was strafing a runway and the tracer stream suddenly hit a defecting surface at the correct angle to bounce back up into his engine.” Sounds awfully dubious. Unless you recovered the bullet and checked it, all you’d know is your plane got shot. And the idea that a ‘stream’ was deflecting back sounds awfully unlikely based on what I know about ricochets. I suspect more likely it was somehow turned into that story rather than something being ‘covered up’ as it would be a one in a million rather than a ‘silly mistake’ if it did happen. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/25 "2010-06-07T01:53:46Z")
I want to be clear about this. **Every single poster** in this thread has been astonishing. Wow. You are fantastic 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/26 "2010-06-07T09:05:27Z")
I heard that [Max Immelmann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Immelmann), one of the first WWI aces, was killed when he shot his own propellor off after his synchroniser gear failed. Reading his wiki article, it seems this is in dispute, but it does say this happened to him on two previous occasion, although he was able to crash-land each time. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/27 "2010-06-07T12:52:37Z")
There’s also [this](http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/history/aircraft/A_Models/64-13145/64-13145.html) sad story about a CH-47A helicopter that shot itself down. > [@Linked Article](#): > > On 5 May 1967, 64-13145, while assigned to the 1st Aviation Detachment was lost in combat due to an accident near Bong, in the Republic of Vietnam (RVN). During a firing run, a forward mounting pin broke, causing one of the 20mm cannons to elevate and fire through the forward rotor system. The blades separated from the aircraft causing the aircraft to nose over out of control. 64-13145 crashed and burned. All crewmembers perished. ---
**Author:** ![tallcoldone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@tallcoldone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tallcoldone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/28 "2010-06-07T16:49:29Z")
I’ve heard a story about A-10 Warthogs and the Gatling Gun they can carry. When firing depleted uranium slugs, the recoil could be sufficient to stall the airplane. Anything to this? ---
**Author:** ![JackWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c2a13f/32.png) [@JackWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackWhite)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/29 "2010-06-07T17:17:47Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > Im pretty sure they put interruptors into turrets pretty quickly for fairly obvious reasons. They could malfunction I guess. The original invention of a propeller that could be shot to pieces by the airplane’s own guns was a prime example of “built-in obsolescence”. ---
**Author:** ![JackWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c2a13f/32.png) [@JackWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackWhite)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/30 "2010-06-07T17:20:04Z")
It’s very likely that most of these incidents would never have been reported because it is unlikely anyone witnessed it or that anyone would have lived to report it. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/31 "2010-06-07T17:20:51Z")
> [@tallcoldone](#): > > I’ve heard a story about A-10 Warthogs and the Gatling Gun they can carry. When firing depleted uranium slugs, the recoil could be sufficient to stall the airplane. Anything to this? [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger#Recoil) suggests that it might be possible, but unlikely: > [@](#): > > The A-10 engines were initially susceptible to flameout when subjected to gases generated in the firing of the gun. When the GAU-8 is being fired, the smoke from the gun can make the engines stop, and this did occur during initial flight testing.[2] Gun exhaust is essentially oxygen-free, and is certainly capable of causing flame-outs of gas turbines. The A-10 engines have a self sustaining combustion section. When the gun is fired the igniters come on to ensure no flame out occurs.[13] > > The recoil force of the GAU-8/A[14] is 10,000 pounds-force (45 kN),[3] which is slightly more than the output of one of the A-10’s TF-34 two engines (9,065 lbf / 40.3 kN each).[15] While this recoil force is significant, in practice cannon fire only slows the aircraft a few miles per hour.[13] A flameout could definitely lead to a stall in the right (wrong?) conditions, as could ordinary recoil if the plane was already close to stalling. Imagine a shallow dive ending with a burst of cannon fire and a sudden climb – if the pilot was already close to stall speed, the cannon’s recoil could slow them down just that extra bit, especially if combined with an engine flameout. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050/32 "2010-06-08T12:20:13Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Low altitude attack planes could be damaged by their own bombs if the pilots weren’t careful. I can’t find a good cite, but in flight sims I’ve done it plenty of times… There probably have been at least a few rookie pilots that were killed by their own bombs. I thought I was going to be purely a spectator in this thread till this jolted my memory of seeing a film clip of a [bouncing bomb test](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouncing_bomb) going wrong… [QUOTE=Wikipedia] In January 1945, a USAAF A-26B Invader was adapted at the Vickers experimental facility at Foxwarren to carry two Highball inert weapons almost completely enclosed in the bomb bay, using parts from a Mosquito conversion. After brief flight testing in the UK, the kit was sent to Wright Field and installed in an A-26C Invader. Twenty-five inert Highball weapons, renamed “Speedee” bombs, were also sent for use in the USAAF trials. Drop tests were carried out over the sea near Eglin AFB, Florida, but **the programme was abandoned after the bomb bounced back at the A-26 causing loss of the rear fuselage and fatal crash** on 28 April 1945. [/QUOTE] And here’s the (melancholy :() film of it… ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/GgHpx5CpVqM/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/GgHpx5CpVqM?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-aircraft-ever-shot-itself-down/542050.md?page=1)