# Has an armed citizen civilian ever stopped a mass shooting in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 13, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762 "2017-10-13T23:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![legion60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@legion60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion60)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/1 "2017-10-13T23:28:11Z")
I don’t recall any civilian trading shots with Vegas type killers. Isn’t it the police and other trained law enforcement agencies that run toword the danger while civilians, armed or not, run from the danger?. Am I wrong in thinking this? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/2 "2017-10-13T23:39:47Z")
**Preemptive Moderator Instructions** Given the way gun threads usually go, let’s keep responses to this factual. Your personal opinions about gun control are not relevant to the question in the OP. Political jabs on the question from either side are subject to a warning. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/3 "2017-10-13T23:45:09Z")
I know little of such matters, but in that situation raising one’s gun up and spraying the hotel with bullets might neither be optimal, nor effective in hitting the other shooter. Plus it would increase one’s own targetage. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/4 "2017-10-13T23:51:01Z")
> [@legion60](#): > > I don’t recall any civilian trading shots with Vegas type killers. Isn’t it the police and other trained law enforcement agencies that run toword the danger while civilians, armed or not, run from the danger?. Am I wrong in thinking this? In fact it happened very recently with the Nashville church shooting: > **[Nashville church shooting highlights ongoing divide on Tennessee, U.S. gun...](https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/09/27/nashville-church-shooting-gun-rights-tennessee/699742001/)** > > Gun control supporters cite attacks like Sunday's as an argument for tighter restrictions, but Tennessee's lawmakers have generally moved the other way. > [@](#): > > Police said the attack was stopped when Samson was confronted by 22-year-old churchgoer Robert “Caleb” Engle. After a scuffle with Engle in which Samson reportedly shot himself, Engle went to his truck, grabbed his own gun and subdued Samson until police arrived. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/5 "2017-10-13T23:52:31Z")
Not at Vegas. 500 yards is a bit too much to ask for with a handgun. In one of the gun threads several years ago, I linked to a site that had stats for stopped shootings9among other stats). i don’t know if I can find it again but if I remember, it was very few, possibly less than 10 incidents. I’ll see if I can find it. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/6 "2017-10-13T23:53:37Z")
Your thread title and question don’t match. Lots of spree killers and common criminals have been stopped by civilians with guns. That doesn’t mean they could have stopped the Las Vegas shooter in a high rise hotel. What version of the question are you actually interested in? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/7 "2017-10-13T23:56:51Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Not at Vegas. 500 yards is a bit too much to ask for with a handgun. > > In one of the gun threads several years ago, I linked to a site that had stats for stopped shootings9among other stats). > i don’t know if I can find it again but if I remember, it was very few, possibly less than 10 incidents. > I’ll see if I can find it. A more recent list. [12 incidents.](http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/) ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/8 "2017-10-13T23:58:24Z")
I doubt it. A mass shooting requires a weapon that can be reloaded several times in a minute, carry enough ammo for several shots, and remain accurate over a long range. That’s a fairly recent invention, certainly a lot more recent than law enforcement switching from private militias to professional, government-funded police forces. However, I’m no historian but I’m sure one will be along soon to explain how everything I just said is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/9 "2017-10-14T00:01:52Z")
If a man stopped a shooter that was on their way to carry out a mass shooting, how would we ever know? A shooter already in place with several already killed and not in pistol range, I don’t know anyone who would make an open charge at the shooter with just a hand gun. Knowing how many crimes are stopped by regular people who are armed but shooting is avoided is pretty hard to know. I know several people who run toward trouble. And what about reporters? Looky-loo’s at wrecks & crime scenes? EMT’s, etc… Most are unarmed IMO. How many mass shootings unfold like the Las Vegas one? > [@](#): > > Isn’t it the police and other trained law enforcement agencies that run toword the danger while civilians, armed or not, run from the danger?. Am I wrong in thinking this? In my opinion your opinion is not based on facts but in many cases people paint with a very broad brush. ( _ **Colibri** , if my last sentence is past the line, please delete it. I felt is was OK due to the construction of the PO’s post and made it as factual as I could. If I failed, please delete it or the whole response._ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/10 "2017-10-14T00:34:09Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > What version of the question are you actually interested in? **Moderating** Let’s consider it to be the question asked in the thread title. There haven’t been a lot of cases comparable to Las Vegas. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/11 "2017-10-14T00:38:02Z")
> [@legion60](#): > > Isn’t it the police and other trained law enforcement agencies that run toword the danger while civilians, armed or not, run from the danger?. Am I wrong in thinking this? **Moderating** Since this is opinion, I am also ruling it out of the scope of GQ. Let’s keep this focused on the question in the thread title. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/12 "2017-10-14T00:51:56Z")
[This one happened practically in my back yard](http://www.wyff4.com/article/firefighter-was-armed-during-takedown-of-shooting-suspect-sheriff-says/7147424). Does it count if he had the gun, but didn’t use it? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/13 "2017-10-14T00:59:03Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [This one happened practically in my back yard](http://www.wyff4.com/article/firefighter-was-armed-during-takedown-of-shooting-suspect-sheriff-says/7147424). Does it count if he had the gun, but didn’t use it? If the gun didn’t come out, no. It would count if he confronted the shooter with gun presented and the shooter surrendered even if no shots were fired. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/14 "2017-10-14T01:49:11Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > I doubt it. A mass shooting requires a weapon that can be reloaded several times in a minute, carry enough ammo for several shots, and remain accurate over a long range. That’s a fairly recent invention, certainly a lot more recent than law enforcement switching from private militias to professional, government-funded police forces. First professional police force in the US was in Boston in 1838, and they didn’t get really widespread in large cities until the 1850s, and it wasn’t until the 1880s that they spread to all major US cities. The first lever-action rifle in the US hit the market in 1837, and in trials the early rifles could fire 16 shots in 31 seconds. The Spencer repeating rifle was used by US forces in 1860, and was the first military rifle to use a removable magazine. The “Gun that won the west” was Winchester 1873 that carried more than a dozen rounds and could reloaded on the fly. So weapons that meet your criteria actually have come around at about the same time as modern police forces. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/15 "2017-10-14T01:57:26Z")
[Another list](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/), from UCLA Law Professor Eugene Volokh (there are some overlaps with the list posted by **running coach** , but Volokh’s list contains several additional cases). Volokh also discusses some of the difficulties in determining how often such things happen; for example, if a mass shooting is stopped early enough it may not be very newsworthy (in America, “Man Pulls Gun, Is Fatally Shot By CCW License Holder” may only make the local news), and it may even be ambiguous as to whether or not the person who was stopped was _really_ intending to carry out a mass shooting or not. “Armed civilian” is another area of ambiguity; some of these examples involve school resource officers, security guards, and corrections officers, some or all of whom may not fit the definition of “armed civilian”. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/16 "2017-10-14T03:58:57Z")
> [@legion60](#): > > I don’t recall any civilian trading shots with Vegas type killers. Isn’t it the police and other trained law enforcement agencies that run toword the danger while civilians, armed or not, run from the danger?. Am I wrong in thinking this? Yes, you are wrong in thinking this. Or more exactly, you are incorrect. I read stories of civilians reacting forcefully against dangerous individuals, fairly often. Not at all commonly with guns, though. Most of the time they use whatever means are at hand. There’s nothing wrong overall, with the bravery of members of the general public. My suspicion, and you can tell me if I’m wrong, is that your thread was triggered in part at least, by one of the most common annoying arguments by part of the anti-gun control people, wherein they claim that we need to allow EVERYONE to be armed without any limits or regulations at all, BECAUSE every now and then, someone with a personal gun, does stop a bad guy. Hopefully, the fact that I’m bringing this up isn’t a problem within the thread. I think it’s strongly implied in the opening post. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/17 "2017-10-14T04:27:55Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > A more recent list. [12 incidents.](http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/) 12 is actually a fairly high number. Such incidents are quite rare to begin with. Your page seems to start at 1997. I’m guessing that they are using the Internet to find stories, hence the 1997 limit, since that’s about when the Internet started to take off. If we look at incidents since 1997, that involved a firearm, and occurred in the United States: > **[List of rampage killers in the Americas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Americas))** > > This is a list of mass or spree killers in the Americas (excluding the United States). A mass murderer is typically defined as someone who kills 3 or more people in one incident, with no "cooling off" period, not including themself. A mass murder typically occurs in a single location where one or more persons kill several others. > Specific notable subtypes of mass murder, including politically motivated crimes, workplace killings, school attacks and familicides, have their own lists. I count 26. 12 : 26 is a pretty high ratio. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/18 "2017-10-14T04:31:20Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Hopefully, the fact that I’m bringing this up isn’t a problem within the thread. I think it’s strongly implied in the opening post. **Moderator Note** It is implied in the post, but I have ruled out that discussion because it is based on opinion. \*\*Please pay attention to the previous mod notes in the thread. \*\* **PLEASE LIMIT DISCUSSION TO THE BASIC FACTUAL QUESTION IN THE THREAD TITLE. DO NOT DISCUSS GUN CONTROL** Thank you for your attention. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/19 "2017-10-14T04:33:05Z")
> **[Texas shooting: Outgunned traffic officer stopped 2 attackers | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/05/us/texas-police-shooting-hero/index.html)** > > An off-duty traffic officer working security in Garland, Texas, used a Glock .45 to shoot dead two men wearing body armor and armed with assault rifles. A off duty traffic guard, who was working as a security guard, stopped two terrorists with assault type weapons. ---
**Author:** ![legion60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@legion60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion60)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762/20 "2017-10-15T00:21:23Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Yes, you are wrong in thinking this. Or more exactly, you are incorrect. I read stories of civilians reacting forcefully against dangerous individuals, fairly often. Not at all commonly with guns, though. Most of the time they use whatever means are at hand. There’s nothing wrong overall, with the bravery of members of the general public. > > My suspicion, and you can tell me if I’m wrong, is that your thread was triggered in part at least, by one of the most common annoying arguments by part of the anti-gun control people, wherein they claim that we need to allow EVERYONE to be armed without any limits or regulations at all, BECAUSE every now and then, someone with a personal gun, does stop a bad guy. > > Hopefully, the fact that I’m bringing this up isn’t a problem within the thread. I think it’s strongly implied in the opening post. Your suspicions are correct. I was hoping to show that a having a well armed citizenery is not much use in protecting the citizenery in these situations. We do not have enough data,yet, on a well armed citizenry facing down an uppity government…yet. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-an-armed-citizen-civilian-ever-stopped-a-mass-shooting-in-america/798762.md?page=2)