# Has any country that banned abortion ever given women equal rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 17, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159 "2016-09-17T14:55:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/21 "2016-09-17T18:52:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > And what do you mean by “banned abortion”? I don’t think there is any country on Earth which has banned all non-birth termination of pregnancies or anyone which permits a free for all (generally you need a licensed medical practitioner to perform them). I think Canada is the widest open. The only requirements are that the physician be trained in the procedure and the clinic meets the required standards for the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/22 "2016-09-17T19:07:25Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Why do you say Ireland? It is a first-world modern nation. On the face of it it has a liberal, left-leaning population with all the anti-discrimination legislation that you’d expect and yet the l[aws concerning abortion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland) are at odds with elsewhere on the continent. The same is true of [Northern Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom#Northern_Ireland) which, even though it is a totally separate state, has similar laws that stem from a shared social and religious history. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/23 "2016-09-17T19:47:33Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is a first-world modern nation. On the face of it it has a liberal, left-leaning population with all the anti-discrimination legislation that you’d expect and yet the l[aws concerning abortion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland) are at odds with elsewhere on the continent. > The same is true of [Northern Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom#Northern_Ireland) which, even though it is a totally separate state, has similar laws that stem from a shared social and religious history. Yep, this, basically. There may be other Catholic countries with similar laws, but I don’t know of any. Ireland has modernised a great deal over the past 30 years, apart from abortion laws. It’s common for Irish (and Northern Irish) women to come to England to get abortions. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/24 "2016-09-17T19:51:16Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > The question contains a false premise. And not just any false premise, but a staggeringly-big one. > > There is no mechanism by which any man-made entity can **GIVE** anybody any rights. Our rights come from God. **Moderator Note** This is essentially witnessing, which is only allowed in GD. Let’s refrain from such arguments in General Questions. Let’s stick to the specific question in the OP. If you wish to discuss whether rights are “God-given” open a new thread in GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/25 "2016-09-17T20:37:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Arguably, North Korea. It bans abortions and gives its male and female citizens equal rights in the sense that everyone has minimal rights. Interesting call. I know next to nothing about rights in NK, but are you sure women and men have the same rights, whatever they may be, before the law? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/26 "2016-09-17T23:16:16Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > This is essentially witnessing, which is only allowed in GD. Let’s refrain from such arguments in General Questions. > > Let’s stick to the specific question in the OP. If you wish to discuss whether rights are “God-given” open a new thread in GD. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator Then let’s talk about the **FACT** that many, many, many people DO believe that. Let’s talk about the **FACT** that you absolutely **cannot** have a productive discussion by simply ignoring a common point of view. > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. Is discussion of cold, hard facts sufficient to satisfy you? Or is discussion of certain facts banned, simply because some people around here don’t like to acknowledge that many millions of people exist? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/27 "2016-09-18T00:14:46Z")
One can argue all day about the origin or even existence of fundamental rights, but all this thread is concerned with is legal rights, and those are in fact granted by governments. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Steophan** : > It’s not a biological issue, it’s a social issue, and the reason for parental leave is to allow parents time to spend with their newborn child. That’s important for mothers and fathers. > > Not sure what deadbeat dads have to do with it at all, to be honest. Apart from the fact that paying them to stay at home with their kids along with the mother will vastly reduce the amount of them. OK, so suppose that Bob and Sue have a one-night-stand, after which they never have anything to do with each other. Sue gets pregnant, and nine months later, she has a baby. Is Bob entitled to parental leave, because he did after all just become a father? And how can we make the laws for him perfectly symmetric with the laws for Sue, given that it’s possible for Bob to become a parent without more than one night’s involvement, but it’s not possible for Sue? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/28 "2016-09-18T00:16:59Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > The question contains a false premise. And not just any false premise, but a staggeringly-big one. > > There is no mechanism by which any man-made entity can **GIVE** anybody any rights. Our rights come from God. > > There is one thing, and one thing only, which government can do in the cause of freedom. And that is to **RECOGNIZE** the rights that mankind already has. > > Both sexes were created equal. And the question of allowing or not allowing abortion has absolutely nothing to do with equality. I’m not here to discuss, or cuss, questions about the existence of any god or gods. I’m here to say in most societies, rights were routinely assigned only to a few people. Rights to property, inheritance, participation in government, choosing one’s own behavior, and a much longer list, were denied to most women, men, and children. Rather than something everybody starts with, rights have always been something granted, or allowed to people by the ones in charge. We can talk about how some places have this and that right, and how long it’s been that way, but it didn’t start that way. No matter where you live, there are things you don’t have the right to do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/29 "2016-09-18T00:26:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Isn’t this thread a tautology? If a country bans abortion, then people will say “They are treating women wrongly.” The law in its majestic equality forbids men as well as women from having abortions. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/30 "2016-09-18T01:34:06Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Flyer](#): > > Then let’s talk about the **FACT** that many, many, many people DO believe that. Let’s talk about the **FACT** that you absolutely **cannot** have a productive discussion by simply ignoring a common point of view. If you are unable to distinguish fact from belief, I strongly urge you not to participate in threads involving religious beliefs in GQ. If you continue to engage in witnessing in the General Questions forum you will face official warnings and possibly a topic ban. Perhaps you should stick to Great Debates, where witnessing is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/31 "2016-09-18T01:40:22Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Then let’s talk about the **FACT** that many, many, many people DO believe that. Let’s talk about the **FACT** that you absolutely **cannot** have a productive discussion by simply ignoring a common point of view. **Moderator Note** First, disputing moderation is only allowed in ATMB. To reiterate what **engineer** just told you, you have already be instructed to refrain from witnessing in GQ. If you continue to do so, you may be subject to warnings. If you wish to discuss your religious viewpoints, you may do so in GD. Colibri General Questions Moderato ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/32 "2016-09-18T01:51:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Interesting call. I know next to nothing about rights in NK, but are you sure women and men have the same rights, whatever they may be, before the law? Officially, yes. Gender equality is a common principle for communist regimes so Kim Il Sung outlawed any form of gender discrimination way back in the forties. The current constitution guarantees equal rights for women. Unofficially, nobody has a lot of real rights in North Korea. So it’s easy to deny women the same rights men are denied. And North Korea is so closed off, it’s virtually impossible to gather statistics about what’s really going on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/33 "2016-09-18T03:52:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Officially, yes. Gender equality is a common principle for communist regimes so Kim Il Sung outlawed any form of gender discrimination way back in the forties. The current constitution guarantees equal rights for women. Well, I know you think this is true, but I was looking for something more than just your say-so. And just to be clear, I’m not suggesting that you are mistaken. I’m just trying to understand what your source for this claim is. > [@](#): > > Unofficially, nobody has a lot of real rights in North Korea. So it’s easy to deny women the same rights men are denied. And North Korea is so closed off, it’s virtually impossible to gather statistics about what’s really going on. So, again, how do you know that women have equal rights to men? NK is not a country that is governed by the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/34 "2016-09-18T04:15:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so suppose that Bob and Sue have a one-night-stand, after which they never have anything to do with each other. Sue gets pregnant, and nine months later, she has a baby. Is Bob entitled to parental leave, because he did after all just become a father? And how can we make the laws for him perfectly symmetric with the laws for Sue, given that it’s possible for Bob to become a parent without more than one night’s involvement, but it’s not possible for Sue? The idea is that people are treated equally by the law, not that laws for people in different situations be identical and “perfectly symmetric”, whatever that means. Bob should be treated the same as anyone else who’s just become a parent without giving birth - something that’s not a gendered issue, as it could apply to Sue’s girlfriend Roberta, or Bob’s husband Billy. Bob will have all the legal responsibilities of being a father - paying child support and the like - why should he be denied the legal benefits as well? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/35 "2016-09-18T05:09:55Z")
If they never have anything to do with each other again, Bob isn’t paying child support and has not recognized the child; he does not even know the child exists. He is not legally the child’s parent unless and until Sue succesfully sues for paternity or unless and until she communicates the arrival of the child and Bob recognizes said child. But if he is in any way involved in the child’s life then yes, countries where child-is-here leave is parental leave (even if people may call it “maternity leave” when speaking English, regardless of the gender of the parents involved) give Bob the right to take leave during a period specified by said law. There are countries where said period reaches several years, for example Sweden. Other countries differentiate paternal leave and maternal leave, but there is a tendency for this differentiation to disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/36 "2016-09-18T07:10:47Z")
Haven’t we gone rather off topic? The correct answer to the OP is 'tell me what you mean by equal rights, and then I’ll tell you whether countries with abortion bans (absolute or conditional) have them or not." I’m anxiously awaiting a criterion for what ‘equal rights’ means. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/37 "2016-09-18T07:25:31Z")
As far as I can tell Ireland exactly fits the OP’s criteria. Abortion is banned except in very rare medical cases to protect the mothers life. Ireland being in the EU is a party to the EU Charter of Fundamental rights which is pretty good on gender equality: > **[Gender](http://fra.europa.eu/en/theme/gender)** I’d also add Poland, Malta and Andorra to the list, again all EU nations that ban abortion: > **[Abortion law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law#European_Union)** > > Abortion laws vary widely among countries and territories, and have changed over time. Such laws range from abortion being freely available on request, to regulation or restrictions of various kinds, to outright prohibition in all circumstances. Many countries and territories that allow abortion have gestational limits for the procedure depending on the reason; with the majority being up to 12 weeks for abortion on request, up to 24 weeks for rape, incest, or socioeconomic reasons, and more fo... ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/38 "2016-09-18T07:51:12Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > There are countries where said period reaches several years, for example Sweden. Other countries differentiate paternal leave and maternal leave, but there is a tendency for this differentiation to disappear. Nitpick: “several years” is a bit of an exaggeration. Paid parental leave in Sweden covers a total of 480 days, 90 days of which are reserved for each parent respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/39 "2016-09-19T12:23:09Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Nitpick: “several years” is a bit of an exaggeration. Paid parental leave in Sweden covers a total of 480 days, 90 days of which are reserved for each parent respectively. Yes, but they do not have to be taken concurrently, you can take them along several years in bouts. It’s to be used through the child’s first years, not just through their first 480 or less days of life. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159/40 "2016-09-19T21:19:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Interesting call. I know next to nothing about rights in NK, but are you sure women and men have the same rights, whatever they may be, before the law? Well, the argument is that since neither men nor women have any rights of any kind in North Korea, they are truly at the cutting edge of gender equality … and I mean “cutting edge” literally. Well played, **Little Nemo** , well played … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-country-that-banned-abortion-ever-given-women-equal-rights/766159.md?page=3)