# Has any figure in human history 'failed forward' as much as trump has? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 1, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039 "2021-03-01T14:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/41 "2021-03-03T09:49:55Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Their beer is pretty good too. The middle of the European continent chuckles at this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/42 "2021-03-03T10:41:33Z")
You do the Pilsners, we’ll do the ale, everyone’s happy 🙂. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/43 "2021-03-03T12:59:30Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > We need to understand that Trump’s failures might not have been failures at all. Consider his failed casinos. Trump come in, hires himself and/or his family and cronies at exorbitant salaries, whereby he enriches himself at the price of making the casinos less profitable, whereby all the other lesser stockholders lose money. Trump isn’t that smart. He’s been forced to sell casinos and divest other businesses (Trump Airlines, Trump Mortgage, anybody remember [the USFL](https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a41135/donald-trump-usfl/)?) at huge losses to his initial investment. He has mostly made money by licensing the Trump name which has ‘value’ by virtue of his singular talent of self-promotion, and through promotional real estate ventures of dubious merit like Trump [not a] University. The ‘trick’ of running a business into the ground while effectively embezzling the income is something he’s done with his foundation and a handful of other companies but never to a large enough tune to make him the billionaire he purports himself to be. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/44 "2021-03-03T13:11:04Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > We need to understand that Trump’s failures might not have been failures at all. Consider his failed casinos. Trump come in, hires himself and/or his family and cronies at exorbitant salaries, whereby he enriches himself at the price of making the casinos less profitable, whereby all the other lesser stockholders lose money. I watched a Netflix doc once about trump as a businessman. This was a few years ago, shortly after he first became prez, so I don’t remember it in a lot of detail, but it portrayed trump’s casino failures as being due to massive incompetence, not any prearranged plan to bankrupt them to cause himself to profit. I mean, casinos are typically profit-making factories-- running one into the ground intentionally is killing the golden goose. Though I think you’re on the right track that trump would always go into a project not caring if it fails, because he would be confident that if it failed he’d be able to walk away from it with no harm to his bottom line while his business partners all crashed and burned-- he has a lizard-brain instinct at self-preservation that way. An anecdote from the Netflix doc I remember well-- they interviewed a woman who was his right-hand person at one point during his NY developer days. She tried hard to talk him out of buying some cheap inferior marble, but he insisted he would not pay more for better quality. When it arrived and he saw how bad the quality was he had a hissy fit, screaming at her for buying it, and had her fired. ETA: semi-ninja’d by @Stranger_On_A_Train while I was typing my own long-winded reply 😊 ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/45 "2021-03-03T13:28:33Z")
A case could be made of Christopher Columbus. An incompetent tyrannical monster consumed by greed whose signature voyage was based on a faulty belief of the size of the world that everyone knew at the time was wrong. Yet now is thought by most people to be the worlds greatest explorer who was right about the shape of the world when everyone else was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/46 "2021-03-03T13:38:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > A case could be made of Christopher Columbus. An excellent answer! Yes, his particular combination of stupidity, greed and cruelty, as well as a brain-damaged bulldog’s determination to push ahead with a bad idea despite all evidence to the contrary, and then to this day, well into the 21st century, be celebrated with a holiday in his name for which government workers get a day off, makes him an excellent candidate for most egregious case of ‘failing upward’. Historically speaking, he is well ahead of trump-- how many people will still remember the trump name 500 years from now? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/47 "2021-03-03T13:51:04Z")
We continent, you [incontinent](https://schumanchu.eu/html/l/l_00102incontinentia.html), at least half of us happy 😃. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/48 "2021-03-03T18:00:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > As far as I can tell, the British have the lead in exactly three areas; science fiction comedy ( _Galaxy Quest_ notwithstanding), jellied eel production, and queens sporting silly hats. And we’ve got consorts making inappropriate comments that you 'Merkins could only _dream_ of. -but I came here to say, yeah, I know he’s not in Trump’s league, but Boris Johnson deserves at least a passing mention doesn’t he? I mean, these are just snippets from a life. And we made him fucking Prime Minister. > **[Boris Johnson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson)** > > Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson (born 19 June 1964) is a British politician and writer. He was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Leader of the Conservative Party from 2019 to 2022. He previously was Foreign Secretary from 2016 to 2018 and Mayor of London from 2008 to 2016. He was Member of Parliament (MP) for Henley from 2001 to 2008 and Uxbridge and South Ruislip from 2015 to 2023. > Johnson attended Eton College and Balliol College, Oxford in his youth; and he was elected president... As a journalist: > Scandal erupted when Johnson wrote an article on the archaeological discovery of King Edward II’s palace for the [Times] newspaper, having invented a quote for the article which he falsely attributed to the historian Colin Lucas, his godfather. After the editor Charles Wilson learnt of the matter, Johnson was dismissed. > > [After being hired by The Telegraph] Many of his fellow journalists there were critical of his articles, opining that they often contained lies designed to discredit the [European] commission. The Europhile Tory politician Chris Patten later stated that, at that time, Johnson was “one of the greatest exponents of fake journalism”. As a politician, this is the man who, - As foreign secretary seemed to take delight in offending our European neighbours - Was in large part the engineer of Brexit and all of the staggering incompetence that flowed from that (eg [contracts for ferry companies with no boats](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/30/no-deal-brexit-ferry-company-owns-no-ships-and-has-never-run-ferry-service)) - Was responsible for the farcical negotiation of a Brexit Deal; and then threatened to break international law by reneging on it - Was the big COVID herd immunity fan who boasted about shaking hands with COVID patients – and was seriously ill with COVID as a result. - Was the man who wouldn’t sack his chief advisor after the [Dominic Cummings COVID lockdown scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_Cummings_scandal) - but reportedly sacked him for referring to his (Johnson’s) partner as “Princess Nut Nuts” - Has described Muslim women as looking like letter boxes - Has refused to disclose how many children he has I just skimmed the surface - it goes on and on. Yeah, like I said, we made him Prime Minister. j ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/49 "2021-03-03T18:21:10Z")
Boris Johnson’s resume does make him sound like the Brit version of trump, right down to the crazy weasel’s-nest head of hair. But, trump’s crazy hair at least has an actual purpose, being an epic comb-over to hide his baldness. Johnson doesn’t seem to have that problem. Can anyone explain Johnson’s crazy hair? It looks like he was held hostage for a year and just released from a dark, mirrorless room. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/50 "2021-03-03T19:12:18Z")
> [@solost](#): > > I mean, casinos are typically profit-making factories-- running one into the ground intentionally is killing the golden goose. Trump’s main casino investments have been in Atlantic City; many Atlantic City casinos have not done well. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/51 "2021-03-04T00:00:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Trump’s main casino investments have been in Atlantic City; many Atlantic City casinos have not done well. One would expect a billionaire expert real estate investor to know how to select a good location. Trump…is not. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/52 "2021-03-04T03:41:42Z")
> [@solost](#): > > An excellent answer! Yes, his particular combination of stupidity, greed and cruelty, as well as a brain-damaged bulldog’s determination to push ahead with a bad idea despite all evidence to the contrary, and then to this day, well into the 21st century, be celebrated with a holiday in his name for which government workers get a day off, makes him an excellent candidate for most egregious case of ‘failing upward’. I like to think of Columbus as the luckiest crackpot in history. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/53 "2021-03-04T11:19:15Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The ‘trick’ of running a business into the ground while effectively embezzling the income is something he’s done with his foundation and a handful of other companies but never to a large enough tune to make him the billionaire he purports himself to be. I look at it like this: Would a genuine billionaire spend time making infomercials to hawk bottled water, steaks, and board games? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/54 "2021-03-04T15:28:59Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I look at it like this: Would a genuine billionaire spend time making infomercials to hawk bottled water, steaks, and board games? There’s more than one way to skin a cat. You can make money doing all sorts of things. (Or lose money, too.) I look at it like this: every single suggestion I’ve ever seen that Trump is not really a billionaire has come from a politically-oriented person opposed to Trump for political reasons. Every assessment done by purely financial people assumes he’s worth a few billion or so. Which is of course not to say he’s remotely near as successful as he claims to be. But that’s par for the course with Trump, and nothing new. (Trump’s own assessment of his wealth used to rely on the notion that the value of the name “Trump” was several billion dollars. Even in the highly unlikely event that this was ever true to begin with, it’s certainly not true now.) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/55 "2021-03-04T15:57:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > (Trump’s own assessment of his wealth used to rely on the notion that the value of the name “Trump” was several billion dollars. Even in the highly unlikely event that this was ever true to begin with, it’s certainly not true now.) Trump’s name is going in the negative column on all spreadsheets now. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/56 "2021-03-04T16:11:11Z")
My initial thought was that it’s worth zero. But I think it’s possible that in certain foreign countries it might still have a bit of value. A bit. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/57 "2021-03-04T16:39:08Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Trump’s name is going in the negative column on all spreadsheets now. Whatever trump’s relative worth, I think most of us can agree that trump’s best and probably only real money-making skill set is through an almost feral instinct for shameless self-promotion. Applying that shameless self-promotion to politics has been very successful for him in the sense of becoming a savior of sorts to a certain lowest common denominator, xenophobic, racist, hateful type of person, who unfortunately number a higher minority percentage of the US population than many of us would have thought previously. But his miscalculation is that the Venn diagram of his political followers vs. people who are able to afford to stay in trump-branded hotels or buy any trump-branded products in the future (other than red hats and shit) is essentially zero. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/58 "2021-03-04T22:35:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I look at it like this: every single suggestion I’ve ever seen that Trump is not really a billionaire has come from a politically-oriented person opposed to Trump for political reasons. Every assessment done by purely financial people assumes he’s worth a few billion or so. Let’s see those tax returns, then. And an objective valuation of the actual properties and functioning businesses; not claiming tax write-offs or donations to a “charitable foundation” as revenue. I would especially like to see the value of whatever collateral he has offered against loans from Deutsche Bank, as well as the backgrounds of people buying overpriced apartments sitting empty in Trump properties. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/59 "2021-03-08T14:00:42Z")
I disagree, he has got a band of tens of millions of highly gullible people who will basically do anything he says. I agree that high end real estate is probably out, but there is still money to be made in diet supplements, pseudo luxury goods, and self help. Sure 60% of the market is dead to him, but the 30% that is locked in is nothing to sneeze at. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039/60 "2021-03-08T14:07:44Z")
Yeah, you’re probably right, there’s plenty of fleecing still to be had for trump. His business model will just go from pseudo-high end (trump-branded real estate, hotels and luxury items) to lower end stuff like MAGA merch, ‘political’ contributions that go right into his pocket, pay to attend rallies, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-figure-in-human-history-failed-forward-as-much-as-trump-has/934039.md?page=4)