# Has any modern war actually ever been fought to "protect our freedom" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196 "2015-07-15T01:05:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/61 "2015-07-21T17:39:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, except that we DID sell weapons and other material to Germany (and I think Italy as well, though not as sure about that) prior to us becoming fully involved in the war. We were essentially selling stuff to all sides at one point. The Germans, however, had placed the UK and later Russia under a blockade and started sinking US flagged shipping bound for either country which pretty cause the US to basically start a covert naval war with Germany. The Brits put Germany under a far more effective blockade even earlier. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/62 "2015-07-21T17:47:18Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Dammit, my computer ate my first response. Try II. > In any sort of alt-hist scenario, unless you accept magic or break the laws of nature there are things which not possible. What you are proposing falls under this, at which point, I get to have aliens help me out. > > Let’s go through your alt-his and count up the number of big-M Miracles which would be required. > > First, any scenario which doesn’t have Hitler attacking the USSR is **Miracle I**. The _entire point_ of the war for Adolf was to create lebensraum in the East for the master race. He had been stating this for pretty much his entire political career. His plan was the slaughter the Slaves and seize their land. > > It doesn’t matter how many divisions the Germany minus Hitler had, they couldn’t cross the channel. Operation Sea Lion would have required complete control of the air and the sea, something the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe were unable to provide in 1940 or after, even with **Miracle I**. To invade England, you need to defeat the RN and RAF, something which was impossible in any realistic scenario. So, let’s get rid of them, give you a magical navy and burn another miracle. **Miracle II** is now used to put a bunch of German troops on British soil. . Actually Hitler and Stalin might have been happy carving up the Balkans, Poland and etc. It was actually quibbling over who got what they led to Barbarossa. If Molotov had been more conciliatory, perhaps Barbarossa might have been put off for years. Yes, you are correct. Operation Sea Lion would have failed. But a few mistakes on the part of Goering cost them the Battle of Britain, and if Doenitz had gotten his way with more subs, Germany could have starved Britain into submission. Churchill himself said it was close there for a while. No Miracles. A little better Diplomacy, two minor tactical and one strategic blunders undone. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/63 "2015-07-21T18:07:43Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > And by this reasoning, then attacking Iraq was the correct answer because it _could_ have had weapons of mass destruction, right? > You state that the reasons are immaterial, but nothing could be further from the truth. This brings us back to Bush and the Iraq war. Hussein didn’t have WMD, so claims of defense do not fly. > > . Hussein had _tonnes of WMD_. He killed plenty of Iranians (1980s Iran–Iraq War)and even his own Kurds with them. > **[Iraq and weapons of mass destruction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Chemical_weapon_attacks)** > > Iraq actively researched and later employed weapons of mass destruction (WMD) from 1962 to 1991, after which it destroyed its chemical weapons stockpile and halted its biological and nuclear weapon programs as required by the United Nations Security Council. The fifth president of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, was internationally condemned for his use of chemical weapons against Iranian and Kurdish civilians during the Iran–Iraq War in the 1980s. Saddam pursued an extensive biological weapons program Taha was working on weaponizing Anthrax, Botulism, and other germ warfare agents. Now yes,\* after\* the The Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991), aka Operation Desert Storm , etc, the Allies destroyed most of the WMD. Quite a bit was unaccounted for, however. Blix was concerned about this, which is why he demanded to be let back in. It turns out the "“unaccounted for” WMD was actually lost in the desert, and by the time of GWB and 2003, they were more a danger to the environment than to Husseins foes. Certainly Hussein had been looking into making new stuff, but when Blix got back in Saddam had moved what little he had to Syria, **and there were no significant CBR WMD left in Iraq** by the time the Shrub demanded we invade again. Still, quite a few rockets had been modified for longer range, making them technically “WMD”. They found a small amount of other stuff, i.e.: _50 deployed Al-Samoud 2 missiles Various equipment, including vehicles, engines and warheads, related to the AS2 missiles 2 large propellant casting chambers 14 155 mm shells filled with mustard gas, the mustard gas totaling approximately 49 litres and still at high purity Approximately 500 ml of thiodiglycol Some 122 mm chemical warheads Some chemical equipment 224.6 kg of expired growth media_ But to say that Hussein didn’t have WMD is false unless you include a specific timeline and add the words “significant CBR”. SH had no significant CBR Weapons of Mass Destruction in 2003. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/64 "2015-07-21T18:13:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The thing is, all of this is unlikely…and unnecessary to demonstrate that our freedom was threatened. Our freedom was basically threatened by Germany when they sank the first US flagged merchant ship, since we were at that point not free to trade as we liked (plus there was the whole dead sailors thingy that is kind of against freedom). Our freedom in the form of our strategic need for trade was threatened, resources were threatened, our overseas interests were threatened, etc etc. Months earlier we werent free to trade as we liked with Germany due to our ships being boarded and interned at gunpoint by the RN, and the extensive minefields they laid in the North Sea. > **[Blockade of Germany (1939–1945)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany_(1939%E2%80%9345)#U.S._reaction_to_the_British_blockade)** > > The Blockade of Germany (1939–1945), also known as the Economic War, involved operations carried out during World War II by the British Empire and by France in order to restrict the supplies of minerals, fuel, metals, food and textiles needed by Nazi Germany – and later by Fascist Italy – in order to sustain their war efforts. The economic war consisted mainly of a naval blockade, which formed part of the wider Battle of the Atlantic, but also included the bombing of economically important targ... ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/65 "2015-07-21T18:43:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Months earlier we werent free to trade as we liked with Germany due to our ships being boarded and interned at gunpoint by the RN, and the extensive minefields they laid in the North Sea. > [Blockade of Germany (1939–1945) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany_(1939%E2%80%9345)#U.S._reaction_to_the_British_blockade) Your link says it wasn’t “trade” but mail. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/66 "2015-07-21T18:52:00Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Your link says it wasn’t “trade” but mail. That makes it an even more serious point. The mail getting through is one of the cornerstones of running a state. That’s how you go about collecting taxes, you see. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/67 "2015-07-21T19:03:33Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Your link says it wasn’t “trade” but mail. The Mail was what the US was protesting about. We accepted the RN had the right to block contraband. US ships were still caught trying to smuggle contraband in. \*The day after the declaration, the British Admiralty announced that all merchant vessels were now liable to examination by the naval Contraband Control Service and by the French Blockade Ministry, which put its ships under British command.[22] Because of the terrible suffering and starvation caused by the original use of the strategy, a formal declaration of blockade was deliberately not made,[23] but the communiqué listed the types of contraband of war that was liable for confiscation if carried. It included all kinds of foodstuffs, animal feed, forage, and clothing, and articles and materials used in their production. - This book lists many American ships detained by the British: > **[The Official Chronology of the U.S. Navy in World War II](https://books.google.com/books?id=1EV4r9PlB8IC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=American%2Bfreighter%2BHybert&source=bl&ots=Osq-0XGDmq&sig=XT8uj3Xx-ee2vwSp4ZUzoqVujys&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMIqbfOmPPsxgIVVi6ICh2q-w1f#v=onepage&q=American%20freighter%20Hybert&f=false)** > > Now this greatly expanded and updated study, sponsored by the Naval Historical Center, goes far beyond the original work, drawing on information from more than forty additional years of historical research and writing. Massive but well organized, it... and here: > **[Chronological List of U.S. Ships Sunk or Damaged 1939 to 1941](http://www.usmm.org/sunk39-41.html)** > > Chronological List of U.S. Ships Sunk or Damaged 1939 to 1941 due to war causes The British Minefields sunk quite a few US ships, but none before the US entered the war. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/68 "2015-07-21T19:10:24Z")
Well, that’s just a shame. Excuse me while I look at photos of my grandad building an Anderson shelter in the garden shortly before some Nazis twats blew up half of Battersea. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/69 "2015-07-21T20:52:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Months earlier we werent free to trade as we liked with Germany due to our ships being boarded and interned at gunpoint by the RN, and the extensive minefields they laid in the North Sea. > [Blockade of Germany (1939–1945) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany_(1939%E2%80%9345)#U.S._reaction_to_the_British_blockade) Yes they did…and that deterred our freedom as well. What they didn’t do, however, was start deliberately sinking our merchant or warships to enforce the blockade of ‘clothing, jewels, securities, cash, foodstuffs, chocolate, coffee and soap to Germany through the post’. I think it was foolish and even dangerous for the Brits to take this line with the US at that time (wasn’t the first time they did silly shit like this when trying to deny US trade to the continent either…recall the Napoleonic Wars, for instance), but I’m unsure what point you are trying to prove here. The US certainly was trading with all sides. The Brits attempted to blockade the Germans which cut into our trade. The Germans in tern blockaded the UK and the Russians and started unrestricted submarine warfare against the US before we were even fully in the war (which was definitely stupid of them). All of this basically were threats against our interests and the US government attempted to ‘protect our freedom’ by protesting against the British actions and by what amounted to a covert war against Germany for sinking our ships through most of 1940. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/70 "2015-07-21T21:01:31Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yes they did…and that deterred our freedom as well. What they didn’t do, however, was start deliberately sinking our merchant or warships to enforce the blockade of ‘clothing, jewels, securities, cash, foodstuffs, chocolate, coffee and soap to Germany through the post’. . Ok, let us say a RN Cruiser hails a US flag merchant ship, ordering to pull over and be searched- and the captain just sails on? Warning shot. Then "SHOOT! and a US ship hits the bottom. The British just had the luxury of stopping our ships with surface warships. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/71 "2015-07-21T21:22:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The Germans in tern blockaded the UK and the Russians and started unrestricted submarine warfare against the US before we were even fully in the war (which was definitely stupid of them). That’s just not true. On the contrary German subs were sternly directed to not, under any circumstances, pull any shenanigans that might pull the US into the war. While it is true that German subs on occasion fired torpedoes on a handful of US warships before the formal declaration of war, in the cases I’m aware of it was in sort-of-self-defence in that said US warships were actively tracking and pinging the tubs and broadcasting their locations for nearby RN and Canadian ships to sink. Which is pretty much an attack in and of itself, even if the US destroyers didn’t directly fire weapons of their own. On [at least one occasion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearny_%28DD-432%29), the US destroyer dropped depth charges on the German sub before it had taken any hostile action at it. US civilian shipping on the other hand was strictly verboten (although some may or may not have been blown the hell up through the fog of war - I’m not well-read on the details), if only because Hitler and Dönitz remembered the _Lusitania_ and the _William P. Frye_ and, up until Japan did its thing, were none too keen on prodding the bear. Which is why, in turn, a number of non-US merchant captains opted to fly the US flag while in hot zones or after receiving reports of u-boot sightings in their general vicinity. Hell, for that matter the Nazis in general weren’t really keen on prodding the bear \*after \*Pearl Harbour either - the declaration of war was pretty much Hitler’s own 'tarded whim. For which Churchill no doubt quietly but profusely thanked the little creep. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/72 "2015-07-21T21:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=Kobal2] That’s just not true. On the contrary German subs were sternly directed to not, under any circumstances, pull any shenanigans that might pull the US into the war. [/QUOTE] You are right…my use of ‘unrestricted submarine warfare’ was incorrect. Still, they did sink quite a few US flagged ships. [Here’s](http://www.usmm.org/sunk39-41.html) the list…note particularly the ones from 1939 to December of '41. Not just one or two ‘accidents’ on that list, and certainly more than the UK sunk in their own blockade of US shipping from the continent. > [@](#): > > While it is true that German subs on occasion fired torpedoes on a handful of US warships before the formal declaration of war, in the cases I’m aware of it was in sort-of-self-defence in that said US warships were actively tracking and pinging the tubs and broadcasting their locations for nearby RN and Canadian ships to sink. Which is pretty much an attack in and of itself, even if the US destroyers didn’t directly fire weapons of their own. On at least one occasion, the US destroyer dropped depth charges on the German sub before it had taken any hostile action at it. It was more than a handful, and it heated up pretty steadily through '40 and into '41 and became the next best thing to a full on covert naval war between the US and Germany well before we formally entered the war. If you are interested, [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_engagement_of_neutral_United_States_in_World_War_II_before_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) was the first incident where a US warship engaged a German submarine. > [@](#): > > Hell, for that matter the Nazis in general weren’t really keen on prodding the bear after Pearl Harbour either - the declaration of war was pretty much Hitler’s own 'tarded whim. For which Churchill no doubt quietly but profusely thanked the little creep. Well, the NAZIS were keen to do it, but the German military was less so (just like they were less keen on many other things that idiot Hitler got them into). [QUOTE=DrDeth] Ok, let us say a RN Cruiser hails a US flag merchant ship, ordering to pull over and be searched- and the captain just sails on? Warning shot. Then "SHOOT! and a US ship hits the bottom. [/QUOTE] Again, what point are you trying to make here? The Brits didn’t shoot at our ships and didn’t sink any. They did curtail our freedom, however, even if it was less than what the Germans started doing a few months later. > [@](#): > > The British just had the luxury of stopping our ships with surface warships. Are you seriously excusing the Germans behavior in sinking US flagged shipping?? I really, truly don’t see what point you are trying to make, but whatever it is you aren’t doing very good at it since it seems to me you ARE trying to excuse the Germans behavior. In the context of this thread, are you saying that because the Brits stopped our shipping that gave the Germans the right to do it to (taking it up a notch because subs can’t stop merchant ships without shooting at them…or something, since they actually can and did) and therefore the US wasn’t fighting to ‘protect our freedom’?? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/73 "2015-07-21T21:43:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > US civilian shipping on the other hand was strictly verboten (although some may or may not have been blown the hell up through the fog of war - I’m not well-read on the details), if only because Hitler and Dönitz remembered the _Lusitania_ and the _William P. Frye_ and, up until Japan did its thing, were none too keen on prodding the bear. Which is why, in turn, a number of non-US merchant captains opted to fly the US flag while in hot zones or after receiving reports of u-boot sightings in their general vicinity. > > . Only a few. Most which were in war zones (and likely not properly IDed), (unless you count those flying the Panamanian flag). I could find almost no US flagged merchant ships sunk by a Uboot outside a warzone. So yes, Doenitz tried pretty damn hard to not sink US merchant ships. Here’s one: > **[SS Robin Moor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Robin_Moor)** > > SS Robin Moor was a United States cargo steamship that was built in 1919 and sunk by a German U-boat in May 1941, several months before the US entered World War II. > The U-boat allowed the passengers and crew to launch her lifeboats and abandon ship with no loss of life. However, the sinking of a neutral ship in an area considered until then to be relatively safe from U-boats, and the plight of her crew and passengers, caused a political incident in the United States. > The attack caused many t... and another “After mistaking the neutral American steamer Lehigh for a Greek vessel 100 miles West of Freetown, Sierra Leone, U-126 sinks SS Lehigh at 10.51 AM (all 34 crew and 4 Spanish stowaways escape in 4 lifeboats).” Another: > **[U-Boat Ace](https://books.google.com/books?id=seTCAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT82&lpg=PT82&dq=s.s.%2BAstral%2Bsunk&source=bl&ots=nuLZ_Zutc5&sig=4XMleaIgvnFiRiGMe9o1z9rhWO0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAmoVChMIiM3_qpjtxgIVglGICh2q8gva#v=onepage&q=s.s.%20Astral%20sunk&f=false)** > > An exceptional figure in the history of the German Navy, Wolfgang Luth was one of only seven men in the Wehrmacht to win Germany's highest combat decoration, the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds. At one time or another he operated... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/74 "2015-07-21T21:51:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Are you seriously excusing the Germans behavior in sinking US flagged shipping?? I really, truly don’t see what point you are trying to make, but whatever it is you aren’t doing very good at it since it seems to me you ARE trying to excuse the Germans behavior. In the context of this thread, are you saying that because the Brits stopped our shipping that gave the Germans the right to do it to (taking it up a notch because subs can’t stop merchant ships without shooting at them…or something, since they actually can and did) and therefore the US wasn’t fighting to ‘protect our freedom’?? 😕 From what I can see, German Uboots sank exactly one US merchant ship on purpose, and that was after stopping it, finding it carried contraband, and putting the crew in lifeboats. The SS Robin Moor. What I am trying to say is that the British would have sunk our ships, had we not rolled over and cooperated. Both sides said they had the right to sink ships carry contraband in a warzone. In the end, the Germans sank one on purpose, and the British none on purpose (but several thru mines). The cite you gave above is the one I gave here. It lists Panamanian ships lost also, and ships attacked by the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/75 "2015-07-21T22:05:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You are right…my use of ‘unrestricted submarine warfare’ was incorrect. Still, they did sink quite a few US flagged ships. [Here’s](http://www.usmm.org/sunk39-41.html) the list…note particularly the ones from 1939 to December of '41. Not just one or two ‘accidents’ on that list, and certainly more than the UK sunk in their own blockade of US shipping from the continent. I count 10 “torpedo” or “torpedo and shells” total in the Atlantic 39-November 41 period, plus one capture (with prize crew ! I’m sure they were all wearing peg legs, too). I count 17 in December 41 alone. So, a clear shift. I admittedly don’t know that all 10 were definitely positively accidents/misidentifications but even if none were that’d be a rather low tally for close to 24 months of “hunting” at a time when u-boots were still [king shit of the waves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Happy_Time). Cool data though, thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/76 "2015-07-21T22:49:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I count 10 “torpedo” or “torpedo and shells” total in the Atlantic 39-November 41 period, plus one capture (with prize crew ! I’m sure they were all wearing peg legs, too). I count 17 in December 41 alone. So, a clear shift. > I admittedly don’t know that all 10 were definitely positively accidents/misidentifications but even if none were that’d be a rather low tally for close to 24 months of “hunting” at a time when u-boots were still [king shit of the waves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Happy_Time). > > Cool data though, thanks for sharing. How easy is it to debate someone who gives you all the data you need to undercut his position?? 😛 Yeah, it wasn’t as many as I thought when I was looking at that cite on my iPhone. I suppose a ‘handful’ is actually a pretty good description. For some reason (probably my own History Channel informed ignorance) I always thought it was a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/77 "2015-07-21T22:54:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Cool data though, thanks for sharing. Indeed, and it looks quite a bit like the link I posted in Post #67. :p:D ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/78 "2015-07-21T23:07:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > How easy is it to debate someone who gives you all the data you need to undercut his position?? 😛 I’ll be honest, I could get used to that sort of thing :). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/79 "2015-07-21T23:08:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed, and it looks quite a bit like the link I posted in Post #67. :p:D So it does :o ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196/80 "2015-07-21T23:32:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > For which Churchill no doubt quietly but profusely thanked the little creep. Oh, he did. > [@Sir Winston](#): > > Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful. Winston Churchill, _The Second World War, vol. 3_. London: Cassell, 1948-1954, p. 540 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-war-actually-ever-been-fought-to-protect-our-freedom/725196.md?page=5)