# Has any modern woo been accepted as real science? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2025, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724 "2025-05-23T23:29:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/1 "2025-05-23T23:29:16Z")
Moving on from this thread. > [@The Phenomenon: What is it?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phenomenon-what-is-it/1018583/): > > If we take seriously Jacques Vallée’s proposition that the Phenomenon is not only real but may act as a kind of information system—adapting itself to culture and belief—then what kind of reality are we dealing with? Is it a physical presence, a psychic interface, or something more akin to a ‘meta-reality’ influencing human development across time? For reference; The Phenomenon is a term increasingly used to describe the totality of unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs) and their associated effe… I made the statement, “AFAIK, not one single modern phenomenon that has been dubbed woo has proven to be real.” Of course many advances in science have been disbelieved at one point or another. Germ theory. Continental drift. The existence of atoms. The commonality of all is that the evidence was slim to non-existent - until scientists, no one else, provided irrefutable evidence. Woo, more formally known as woo-woo, has this [definition](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=woo): > [woo woo(adj.)](https://www.etymonline.com/word/woo%20woo) > > also _woo-woo_, derisive term for things deemed pseudo-scientific or superstitious, by 1971, probably from the moaning sounds traditionally assigned to ghosts (compare [goetia](https://www.etymonline.com/word/goetia)). Also as a noun, “superstitious person” or in reference to the superstition itself (“I don’t believe that kind of _woo_ _woo_”). In the scientific spirit, I’m checking to see if I’m wrong about this. I could be, depending on how expansive your definition of woo is. Medicine has accepted a lot of practices that were totally out of the mainstream 50 years ago. Acupuncture, e.g. So have at me. What woo from the last 50 years (when did we stop saying woo-woo?) has become accepted? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/2 "2025-05-23T23:36:52Z")
I think it’s going to be hard to find a cut-and-dried example. A close one is the quasicrystal: > **[Quasicrystal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasicrystal)** > > A quasiperiodic crystal, or quasicrystal, is a structure that is ordered but not periodic. A quasicrystalline pattern can continuously fill all available space, but it lacks translational symmetry. While crystals, according to the classical crystallographic restriction theorem, can possess only two-, three-, four-, and six-fold rotational symmetries, the Bragg diffraction pattern of quasicrystals shows sharp peaks with other symmetry orders—for instance, five-fold. > Aperiodic tilings were disco... Linus Pauling said: > there are no quasi-crystals, there are quasi-scientists. I doubt it was ever called specifically _woo_, though. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/3 "2025-05-23T23:39:09Z")
Acupuncture, perhaps? Though the Chinese medicine theories of qi, meridians, etc. which underlie it are bunk, AIUI, there’s been legitimate research on it, which has, at least in part, explained why it does appear to be effective for some people. [https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture](https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture) > **[Acupuncture](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532287/)** > > Acupuncture is a nonpharmacological treatment option for multiple different diseases and symptoms.  Although numerous studies have been done regarding the efficacy of acupuncture, there only been a few landmark high-quality randomized controlled... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2025, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/4 "2025-05-23T23:52:39Z")
The idea that stomach ulcers were caused by bacteria was completely disregarded for a couple of years until a scientist gave himself an ulcer by consuming H. pylori then curing it with antibiotics. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/5 "2025-05-24T00:10:40Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Acupuncture, perhaps? C’mon, man. That was in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/6 "2025-05-24T00:12:26Z")
That’s what I get for skimming. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/7 "2025-05-24T00:24:35Z")
Not sure that qualifies. The OP would have to render a specific verdict, but what _is_ woo? I’ll take a stab that woo is not merely an assertion for which evidence is presently lacking. It’s an assertion that actively flouts the evidence and theories we do have, and/or one that claims to overturn a major paradigm or posits some major area of Nature as yet undiscovered or at least uninvestigated rigorously. A major corollary of woo is that it often, but not always, presents unfalsifiable claims. At the time ulcers were not yet linked to H. pylori, what were they thought to be caused by? The existence of various bacterial diseases was a well-accepted theory & fact by that time. If somebody thought ulcers were caused by evil spirits and that later proved true, that would be a woo explanation becoming real. That it proved to be a particular bacteria fit pretty well with our general model of disease. The idea that cervical cancer was strongly correlated with HPV viral infection was certainly controversial. But it didn’t seek to overturn any paradigms. And once proven, well, it’s real obvious that it’s valid. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/8 "2025-05-24T00:26:12Z")
What about the placebo effect itself? Praying to be healed of something is pseudoscience. And yet we know it works! It just doesn’t work better than placebo, because it is a placebo. A bunch of woo treatments actually work because placebos work, and the more invasive the placebo the better they work. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/9 "2025-05-24T01:05:34Z")
Perhaps ball lightning? I mean, I don’t know if it’s counts as “woo”, but I can remember a time where you’d find it in books of the paranormal and not really taken seriously anywhere else. Now ISTM it’s widely accepted as a physical phenomenon, even while we have yet to confirm an exact cause. And even though we’re still skeptical about some of the more fantastical claims. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/10 "2025-05-24T01:23:47Z")
Stress and spicy food was considered the cause of peptic ulcers and the assertion that bacteria could live in stomach acid was ridiculed based on all the scientific knowledge at the time, which was 1982. If the OP can be answered it is going to reveal the existence of poor science and ignoring scientific evidence as in this case. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/11 "2025-05-24T01:42:10Z")
What about black holes? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/12 "2025-05-24T01:47:05Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Of course many advances in science have been disbelieved at one point or another. Germ theory. What’s this at one point or another business? The sitting Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn’t believe in germ theory. He thinks diseases are caused by miasma. [RFK Jr. Doesn’t Actually Believe Germs Are Real, Which Seems Like Terrible News For Everyone Going On A Cruise This Year](https://autos.yahoo.com/rfk-jr-doesnt-actually-believe-172500381.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAM20hCX6CJqwIYctBN8fTOu9dvS81koIpMKaPGrRpeZ_UC0_IhI5RS0XjMXFd6kUj6z1PgZHURIRqnHzl_NFh6n1ffeSs9eAbjxmzsAcFNrGmEp0bdGEgdSjxbLeomWqwqFhvNYei2FR42cGoWdFMA2u5Fto4ZneDht-IZnyMSDZ) > Now it all makes sense, though — RFK doesn’t believe germs are real. > > That’s a serious claim, and we have so much evidence that germs cause disease, you probably don’t have a category in your brain for a real person in real life who actually believes germ theory is wrong, much less the person in charge of our nation’s health. And yet, [as Ars Technica recently pointed out](https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/04/rfk-jr-s-anti-vaccine-stance-is-rooted-in-a-disbelief-in-germ-theory/), that claim is based on RFK’s own words that he published in his book _The Real Anthony Fauci_. You just have to look at the Miasma vs. Germ Theory section of the chapter he titled “The White Man’s Burden.” _Yikes_. On so many levels. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/13 "2025-05-24T01:57:28Z")
Thats a fun example because it shows the hidebound medical establishment was not taking germ theory seriously enough only 40-some years ago. But today as then, the woo-providers insist that gem theory is a lie, maintained only by the lockstep adherence of Big Pay-Attention-To-Evidence-Eventually ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/14 "2025-05-24T02:09:39Z")
Plant communication. Animal languages. This isn’t to say that we’re all living in the Hundred Acre Wood with Ents but there’s a _bit_ more going on than we’d all been thinking in the last few decades. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/15 "2025-05-24T02:20:36Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > gem theory is a lie You mean diamonds aren’t a girl’s best friend? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/16 "2025-05-24T02:21:15Z")
Ok, I’ll list edge cases from above. Ball Lightning Acupuncture Placebos And add Alternative Medicine such as chiropractic medicine Traditional Chinese Medicine Cryptozoology - the [Okapi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okapi) In a separate category I would list **paradigm shifts and reconsideration of evidence** such as Plate Tectonics H. pylori as cause of ulcers Low levels of alcohol aren’t actually good for the heart, it’s just an artifact that people who are sick tend to refrain from drinking Germ Theory of Disease Theory of Evolution Normal Science **Special Cases** : [Osteopathic Medicine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States) - started out as woo, then embraced science, and now has medical schools at top universities. This is distinct from [Osteopathy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathy) which is woo AFAICT. Massage therapy - which never was quite considered woo, but wasn’t prescribed very often **No man, that’s not it** (special pleading) UFOs: NASA now searches for life on mars. Alchemy - many of the alchemists were primitive chemists Witchcraft - discrimination against midwives Spoon bending - NYT business writer recontextualizes it to challenge our views of reality and other mumbo jumbo in a pit thread a few years back. Loch Ness Monster - could be otters * * * Acupuncturists and chiropractors can do something useful, even if their underlying conceptual framework is bunk. So science will accept your woo if you can show a recognizable scientific process, undergo peer review, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/17 "2025-05-24T02:32:21Z")
Arguably, lasers. While I don’t know if the specific term was used, in early sci-fi circles the idea of a _visible_ “ray” that could hurt, damage or destroy things was repeatedly used as an example of bad science. It was asserted that any real beam weapon or tool would have to be formed of invisible radiation. There were even some stories that used the “impossibility” of visible destructive beams as as a plot point. Then lasers were invented, and everyone stopped saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/18 "2025-05-24T02:38:48Z")
I can’t see how that would be true. Even the ancients knew that concentrated sunlight could burn (even if the whole thing about Archimedes’ burning mirrors thing is apocryphal). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/19 "2025-05-24T02:39:48Z")
Rogue waves. > In 1826, French scientist and naval officer [Jules Dumont d’Urville](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dumont_d%27Urville)reported waves as high as 33 m (108 ft) in the Indian Ocean with three colleagues as witnesses, yet he was publicly ridiculed by fellow scientist [François Arago](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Arago). In that era, the thought was widely held that no wave could exceed 9 m (30 ft).[[18]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave#cite_note-Parker2012-18)[[19]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave#cite_note-Jones2008-19) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2025, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/20 "2025-05-24T02:56:03Z")
Prions as a cause of disease. The idea that proteins themselves could cause an infectious disease was very controversial, and many scientists felt there was an undiscovered virus behind prion diseases. The idea that the microbes in your digestive system affected your mood. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724.md?page=2)