# Has any modern woo been accepted as real science? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2025, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724 "2025-05-23T23:29:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/81 "2025-05-28T17:56:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > but there was no robust evidence it was beneficial for anything, except shoulder pain and [fibromyalgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibromyalgia).[[15]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture#cite_note-sys0-18) > > Above quote from Monty’s Wiki link. > > If there is robust evidence that acupuncture is good for two medical conditions, then it is not inherently woo; only the extremely broad claims made for it are wrong… > > Additionally, if you read the [journal article linked at footnote 15](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9685495/#zoi221230t1), you’ll see that although only those two conditions rated high or strong, an additional eight rated moderate. See Figure 2 and the Table, with quotes from the original studies. That journal review article out of China (red flag waves in the background)\* citing the GRASP study re acupuncture supposedly benefiting chronic shoulder pain, is a reminder that meta-analyses are only as good as the papers they analyze. And that one isn’t so hot. > **[Location Location Location. Acupuncture and chronic shoulder pain - CAM or...](https://www.iasp-pain.org/publications/relief-news/article/acupuncture-and-chronic-shoulder-pain/)** > > Having written a number of posts on acupuncture (see here, here, and here) I guess my particular biases are reasonably apparent. So imagine my surprise when a large RCT published \[…\] There’s limited comeback, even on the Dope, to posts saying “well, it worked for me!” (or my relative or friend.) We’re strongly wired to accept anecdotes. Though why acupuncture would work for a couple types of pain but not myriad others is a mystery. \*it’s been noted for a long time that acupuncture studies out of China are almost always positive. > **[Evidence Update-Chinese Studies of Acupuncture Are Always Positive: Perfect...](https://skeptvet.com/2014/05/evidence-update-chinese-studies-of-acupuncture-are-always-positive-perfect-medicine-or-hidden-bias/)** ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/82 "2025-05-28T18:26:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > is a reminder that meta-analyses are only as good as the papers they analyze I’m familiar with the issues concerning review papers from my own researches. Deciding what to include and what to ignore is crucial. The writers of the review are VA doctors from Los Angeles. We have no way of knowing what their biases are concerning articles from China. We can note that they found the overwhelming majority of the studies lacking for support for acupuncture, but did let through ten studies for a variety of pain treatments listing moderate or better results. Where should the line be drawn when looking at studies? Eliminate out of hand all studies from China? That’s going to be increasingly problematic in the future as Chinese science grows in depth and stature. Better to re-examine studies and conduct newer and better ones. That’s happening. A quick look at Google Scholar finds newer studies on shoulder pain. A quick look at these finds footnotes for a series of other studies along with several other review articles, apparently favorable. Actual researchers need to go down these rabbit holes and individually evaluate each one. I’ll only go so far as to say that condemning acupuncture as woo in the same sentence as saying that peer-reviewed studies have found it effective should not fly. That’s exactly what supporters consistently accuse skeptics of doing. We need to be better than that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/83 "2025-05-28T19:23:58Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Repressed memory recover is a lie, and a dangerous one. Very dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/84 "2025-05-28T19:34:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > is a reminder that meta-analyses are only as good as the papers they analyze > > The writers of the review are VA doctors from Los Angeles. We have no way of knowing what their biases are concerning articles from China. They cite a single review paper as supposedly validating acupuncture for chronic shoulder pain. The paper in question is: Yuan QL, Wang P, Liu L, et al. Acupuncture for musculoskeletal pain: a meta-analysis and meta-regression of sham-controlled randomized clinical trials. Sci Rep. 2016;6:30675 And when such analyses depend on papers like [the one described here](https://www.iasp-pain.org/publications/relief-news/article/acupuncture-and-chronic-shoulder-pain/), there’s room for substantial doubt about their conclusions. Maybe at some point, papers published about acupuncture and other elements of TCM by Chinese researchers will become more reliable. It’s difficult to see that happening in the near future, given the emphasis placed on TCM as part of the “national heritage” of China and [its embrace by Chinese government officials dating back to Mao Zedong](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/traditional-chinese-medicine-gets-a-boost/). ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/85 "2025-05-28T19:39:04Z")
I’m always in favor of studies. Science and understanding grow with more understanding. But by what method is acupuncture supposed to relieve pain? If the concepts of qi and meridians et al are woo, but acupuncture still works, then what is it actually doing? One can’t make a valid study without a hypothesis to be tested. And it would need to show positive results in people that think it is junk medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/86 "2025-05-28T19:44:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Hypnotism is real. Which part is real? An altered state of consciousness? Sure, anybody that’s drove through long desert highways knows that. But hypnotism that puts you in a trance, makes you do things, makes you forget you were in a trance after, allows for active post-hypnotic suggestions, helps you to quit smoking, or to remember forgotten things, all that stuff TV tells us hypnotism can do - that’s all happy hooey. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/87 "2025-05-28T20:08:28Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > But hypnotism that puts you in a trance, makes you do things, makes you forget you were in a trance after, allows for active post-hypnotic suggestions, helps you to quit smoking, or to remember forgotten things, all that stuff TV tells us hypnotism can do - that’s all happy hooey. Yes, altered states of consciousness are real. We can’t measure them or determine a mechanism for them right now. Obviously, using TV shows to determine what is woo would put defibrillators, lasers, and nuclear physics in that category. So what is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/88 "2025-05-28T20:33:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So what is your point? My point is “hypnotism”, as it is commonly accepted to be, is bunkum. Hooey. Woo. Humbug. Hypnotism does not do ANYTHING that people believe it does. If people want to investigate it as an altered states of consciousness, go ahead. Don’t tell me it will find repressed memories, or find my lost car keys. I don’t know what bringing defibrillators etc into this has to do with anything. They work, and some shows actually show them being used correctly. Hypnotism does not work on TV or in reality. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/89 "2025-05-28T20:48:22Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > If the concepts of qi and meridians et al are woo, but acupuncture still works, then what is it actually doing? I’m not a believer, but there are other possible mechanisms. In particular it could be something similar to how capsaicin works, where stimulation of one pain pathway blocks the activation of a different pathway. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/90 "2025-05-28T21:03:54Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > where stimulation of one pain pathway blocks the activation of a different pathway. I’ve heard that theory. It could be tested. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/91 "2025-05-28T21:09:09Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > But by what method is acupuncture supposed to relieve pain? If the concepts of qi and meridians et al are woo, but acupuncture still works, then what is it actually doing? One can’t make a valid study without a hypothesis to be tested. And it would need to show positive results in people that think it is junk medicine. Prick a needle at any part of the body. [Endorphins](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/endorphins-the-brains-natural-pain-reliever) are released. There are about 20 varieties of them and they all are opiates. The mechanism is straightforward, unless you believe that tissue damage will not produce natural painkillers. ETA below: Yes, [concussive therapy](https://www.reddit.com/r/SpyxFamily/comments/1jnrk3k/loids_infamous_concussive_therapy_is_spreading/) has well documented results. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/92 "2025-05-28T21:12:23Z")
The thing is, a good, hard slap in the face would probably work just as well. Part of what makes it woo is the specificity. You think the needles are important, but they aren’t, really. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/93 "2025-05-28T21:24:26Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The thing is, a good, hard slap in the face would probably work just as well. The New Mean Therapy. Slap yourself to a pain free existence. Almost. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/94 "2025-05-28T23:33:24Z")
Just opened a new clinic: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hHZvUeAdzeI/maxresdefault.jpg "The Slap 2") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHZvUeAdzeI&t=32) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2025, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/95 "2025-05-29T13:37:52Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > My point is “hypnotism”, as it is commonly accepted to be, is bunkum. Hooey. Woo. Humbug. Hypnotism does not do ANYTHING that people believe it does. You responded to my post that said about the same thing, just not so stridently. I’m glad it turns out we’re in general agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2025, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/96 "2025-05-29T16:45:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > > > But by what method is acupuncture supposed to relieve pain? If the concepts of qi and meridians et al are woo, but acupuncture still works, then what is it actually doing? One can’t make a valid study without a hypothesis to be tested. And it would need to show positive results in people that think it is junk medicine. > > Prick a needle at any part of the body. [Endorphins](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/endorphins-the-brains-natural-pain-reliever) are released. There are about 20 varieties of them and they all are opiates. The mechanism is straightforward, unless you believe that tissue damage will not produce natural painkillers. Evidence behind the acupuncture/endorphin theory is unimpressive, even with Gold Standard Science using techniques like [pureeing rabbits and the writhing test in mice](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-and-endorphins-not-all-that-impressive/). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2025, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/97 "2025-05-29T23:37:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I remember the ads for Mysteries Of The Unknown. I briefly had a few of the books people had bought for me at flea markets and such. The stories in these books are presented as true and factual. These books are definitely woo. I have what I imagine to be a Reader’s Digest version of this, _Mysteries of the Unexplained,_ which was owned by my grandmother and which I insisted on keeping when she started giving away her stuff. I spent a lot of my childhood reading this book. It has some stuff that’s been validated, like ball lightning. Stories of meteorites crashing into houses and stuff. It has some stuff that’s plausible, like rains of frogs and other weird weather phenomenon, or extraordinary coincidences. And it has stuff like the Loch Ness Monster and spontaneous combustion. (Spontaneous combustion used to scare the hell out of me.) There’s other stuff I’m not sure of, like unexplained total darkness on a certain date in a certain town. It’s not actually claiming the stuff is true, I don’t think. It’s like, “Here’s some weird shit people reported that we can’t explain.” I loved just living in that mystery as a kid. So maybe some adults do too. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2025, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/98 "2025-05-30T00:50:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Evidence behind the acupuncture/endorphin theory is unimpressive, even with Gold Standard Science using techniques like [pureeing rabbits and the writhing test in mice](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-and-endorphins-not-all-that-impressive/). Nice link. Evidence for electro-accupuncture releasing endorphins dates from the 1970s. Evidence for the non-electrical kind releasing endorphins is non-existent according to the author. I didn’t know that. There’s a western procedure called transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) which also produces endorphins. Sometimes. Time for an anecdote! I think my one and only acupuncture treatment was elecrical: I’m not certain. I did feel a little dizzy afterwards, which I chalked up to endorphins. I didn’t book a 2nd appointment as I didn’t think the treatment matched effectively with my underlying condition. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2025, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/99 "2025-05-30T01:46:40Z")
I once was knocked halfway across the room when attempting to change the channel on a knobless Admiral portable black-and-white TV with a pair of pliers. The endorphin rush from that electrical impulse alleviated a bad headache I was having at the time. Or the shock unstuck my qi. Hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724/100 "2025-06-03T23:00:13Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > (when did we stop saying woo-woo?) I don’t know, but I want it brought back! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-modern-woo-been-accepted-as-real-science/1018724.md?page=6)