# Has any technique or treatment formerly labeled as "woo" been later determined to be valid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638 "2012-12-10T21:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/81 "2012-12-19T21:20:26Z")
That’s it! Thanks. Is he considered woo? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/82 "2013-12-02T16:27:53Z")
[Transmutation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation). It was something the Alchemists believed in. Then in the early 20th century a scientist [QUOTE=wiki] …along with Ernest Rutherford, discovered that radioactive thorium was converting itself into radium in 1901. At the moment of realization, Soddy later recalled, he shouted out: “Rutherford, this is transmutation!” Rutherford snapped back, "For Christ’s sake, Soddy, don’t call it transmutation. They’ll have our heads off as alchemists [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/83 "2013-12-02T16:43:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Acupuncture (healing thru “qi” and meridian channels) is woo and bunkum. BUT, sticking a needle in your skin- not very deeply- does seem to work to block much more serious pain. So, the practice of acupuncture does work. The traditional Chinese medical theory behind acupuncture is woo. > > This sometimes happens. Chiropractic seems to be along the same lines. > > I think someone tried something, it worked- then they and others came up with “woo” theories of why it worked then extended it to things it doesn’t work on. Acupuncture and chiropractic can be “woo” when used improperly. Remember Otzi, the mummified man found in an Austrian glacier some years back? He had several dozen lines tattooed on his body, and most of them corresponded to currently used acupuncture points. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/84 "2013-12-02T16:44:37Z")
Zombie alchemists on woo! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/85 "2013-12-02T17:09:04Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Without sources, that’s pretty much all pure speculation. The idea that lobotomies/trepanation were originally used for constructive applications seems especially far-fetched. There is written documentation of trephanation used in head injuries back to the Ancient Eqyptians. The ancients had no clue why it worked (sometimes) but we now know it either removed a blood clot, or relieved pressure on an injured and swelling brain, or both. Doctors still, sometimes, remove a piece of skull to relieve pressure on an injured brain. That’s very different from a lobotomy which is not so much about knocking a hole in the skull as destroying some brain tissue. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/86 "2013-12-02T17:59:21Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Acupuncture and chiropractic can be “woo” when used improperly. > > Remember Otzi, the mummified man found in an Austrian glacier some years back? He had several dozen lines tattooed on his body, and most of them corresponded to currently used acupuncture points. :eek: This is a great example for this thread. The first and best and most important rule of science -as opposed to woo --is that if it can’t be proven false, it doesn’t mean anything. Let’s see where the claim about Otzi falls. There are hundreds of “currently used acupuncture points.” So any line tattooed on a body could be argued to ‘correspond’ to the points by someone who wants to find a connection. Just saying “Gosh, these look similar” isn’t scientific evidence because there’s no way to objectively say “No they don’t”. So, until someone comes up with a reasonable way of objectively testing whether the lines do correspond to acupuncture points, with a clear ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ (a ‘too close to tell’ is also acceptable)-- and trying a bunch of different ways until you find one that gives the answer you want doesn’t count – in a scientific discussion, we can’t say there’s any connection. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/87 "2013-12-02T18:16:43Z")
Breast-feeding was considered woo for quite a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/88 "2013-12-02T18:23:07Z")
I have to assume you mean “the benefits of breast-feeding vs. formula” was considered unsupported by “modern” science at the time, yes? Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/89 "2013-12-02T19:12:39Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Remember Otzi, the mummified man found in an Austrian glacier some years back? He had several dozen lines tattooed on his body, and most of them corresponded to currently used acupuncture points. :eek: Which system of acupuncture points? Oriental? Western? Indian? Oriental 1000 CE, 1500 CE or 2000 CE? Strangely, none of those agree with each other. And did you know that if you take any map of acupuncture points, print it on transparent stock, and hold it over a star map, many points will match? It’s true – try it sometime! And this proves that acupuncture points are derived from star maps, right? It’s written in the stars, dude! ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/90 "2013-12-02T20:36:41Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > I’m not sure to what extent people ridiculed Dr. Kellogg’s claims, but I don’t think is then-radical ideas were popular at the time. Eating whole grains and vegetables, exercising, quitting drinking and smoking! The very idea! To be fair, he also had some pretty crackpot notions about the health-giving properties of electricity, but still. Also, per wikipedia, enemas (daily - both water and yogurt), sunbathing, and breathing exercises. The sunbathing and breathing exercises sound relaxing. Hmm. His interest in intestinal flora is trendy again. The abstinence thing has already been mentioned. His opinions regarding masturbation are painful to read, but were in keeping with his times. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/91 "2013-12-03T06:13:36Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > I’m not sure to what extent people ridiculed Dr. Kellogg’s claims, but I don’t think is then-radical ideas were popular at the time. Eating whole grains and vegetables, exercising, quitting drinking and smoking! The very idea! To be fair, he also had some pretty crackpot notions about the health-giving properties of electricity, but still. **William Lightbody:** Oh, no, no, I can’t eat fifteen gallons of yoghurt. **Dr. John Harvey Kellogg:** Oh, it’s not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/92 "2013-12-03T07:33:10Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And lobotomies used to be used to cure hysteria and now are used for certain cases of really, really extreme seizure disorders when everything else has been tried. Since when? I’m going to have to request a cite for this one. There IS a form of brain surgery to treat severe cases of epilepsy and the like – but it’s not a lobotomy, as the term is understood. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/93 "2013-12-03T11:41:11Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > **William Lightbody:** Oh, no, no, I can’t eat fifteen gallons of yoghurt. > > **Dr. John Harvey Kellogg:** Oh, it’s not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody. That scene is why we went to see the movie - I had just spent a week and a half being poked, prodded and subjected to all sorts of radiological tests including barium from both ends … ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/94 "2013-12-03T22:09:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That’s it! Thanks. Is he considered woo? Weston Price? He’s nuttier than squirrel shit. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/95 "2013-12-03T23:08:13Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > The cynic in me notes that an endoscopic delivery method is a billable medical procedure, unlike swallowing food. I do indeed expect delivery by endoscope will be preferred by those doing the billing. Because these bacteria are anaerobic, oral delivery won’t work. The poo-poo has to be cultured and delivered in an oxygen-free environment. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/96 "2013-12-04T01:53:37Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > Snerk! 🙂 > > I do think it will get there. I think that there’s a lot more research to do when it comes to acupuncture. But there’s enough evidence to show that there are positive effects in many areas, particularly in specific applications. There are also some fascinating recent experiments involving rats. Just on the cerebral ischemia front: > > [Electroacupuncture exerts anti-inflammatory effects in cerebral ischemia-reperfusion injured rats via suppression of the TLR4/NF-κB pathway.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23165960) > > [Electroacupuncture at the Quchi and Zusanli acupoints exerts neuroprotective role in cerebral ischemia-reperfusion injured rats via activation of the PI3K/Akt pathway.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22842715) > > [Electroacupuncture pretreatment attenuates cerebral ischemic injury through α7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor-mediated inhibition of high-mobility group box 1 release in rats.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22277256) > > [Pretreatment with electroacupuncture induces rapid tolerance to focal cerebral ischemia through regulation of endocannabinoid system.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372445) None of this is traditional acupuncture. There may be some things you can do with small electrical currents that are therapeutic. But it’s not reasonable to treat everything that uses needles as if it is the same as the ancient practice. Traditional acupuncture, just needles in ‘qi’ points, seems to be totally useless when compared to just about anything other than totally ignoring the patient’s complaint. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/97 "2013-12-04T02:15:55Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > I do think it will get there. Ah, yes. Hope springs eternal. 50 to 100 years of investigation has turned up bupkis, but any day now, we will all be vindicated. Forgive me if I don’t get up. > [@](#): > > I think that there’s a lot more research to do when it comes to acupuncture. But there’s enough evidence to show that there are positive effects in many areas, particularly in specific applications. Of a thousand tests, some will, by pure chance, show positive effects. This doesn’t mean there is anything to the claim, it just vindicates the mathematics of probability. > [@](#): > > There are also some fascinating recent experiments involving rats. Just on the cerebral ischemia front: > > [Electroacupuncture exerts anti-inflammatory effects in cerebral ischemia-reperfusion injured rats via suppression of the TLR4/NF-κB pathway.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23165960) > > [Electroacupuncture at the Quchi and Zusanli acupoints exerts neuroprotective role in cerebral ischemia-reperfusion injured rats via activation of the PI3K/Akt pathway.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22842715) > > [Electroacupuncture pretreatment attenuates cerebral ischemic injury through α7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor-mediated inhibition of high-mobility group box 1 release in rats.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22277256) > > [Pretreatment with electroacupuncture induces rapid tolerance to focal cerebral ischemia through regulation of endocannabinoid system.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372445) And what qi channels were those tests using? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/98 "2013-12-04T04:09:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’ve always hated that song. > > … > > Then there was the matter of the catapult and the suspicion (probably justified) that the Flyer could not take off under its own power … I’ve always hated this (which seems to get mentioned often). The Wright 1903 Flyer definitely did take off under its own power - no catapult was used. They lay down a track on the sand for it to run on, but it had no form of power assist other than its engine. They did use a catapult later, when flying in Ohio (which lacked the winds they’d experienced in NC). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/99 "2013-12-04T04:46:28Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > The poo-poo has to be cultured and delivered in an oxygen-free environment. I see. So people can’t give a \*flying \*shit either. [QUOTE=WhyNot] Add maggots to that list. [/QUOTE] Why ? They were never woo, AFAIK. I’m no scholar on the subject, but from what I recall some battlefield doctor observed that maggots only ate the dead bits of otherwise live soldiers and cultivated them for the purpose. The practice slowed down when less oogy methods of cleaning wounds turned up, but is still used to this day to clean difficult wounds when said oogy-free methods don’t work or can’t be applied for one reason or another. But my point is, as far as I know Dr. Dominique Larrey (I looked him up !) didn’t make up any fanciful theory about it like “maggots are spirits of life emerging from dying meat” or “they abhor the energy vibes exuded by healthy pus”. He just deliberately replicated a naturally occuring process - for I expect spontaneous maggot therapy was sort of a battlefield norm back in the day :p. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638/100 "2014-10-22T11:48:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > some battlefield doctor observed that maggots only ate the dead bits of otherwise live soldiers and cultivated them for the purpose. . It was a fairly commonplace observation during e.g. ww2 that people would walk into dressing stations with horrific weeks/months old injuries crawling with maggots which would generally be expected to result in limb-loss/death due to gangrene or sepsis, and after a bout of Modern Medicine ™(R) would turn out surprisingly OK. Generally refugees/partisans etc. rather than soldiers (who tended to have better access to medical treatment). Unsurprisingly, some of the medical types took an interest in the phenomenon and after applying their enquiring minds for a while, a new theraputic method was hatched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-technique-or-treatment-formerly-labeled-as-woo-been-later-determined-to-be-valid/643638.md?page=6)