# Has any woman's hand in marriage ever been offered as a prize in a contest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 22, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044 "2010-10-22T21:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/21 "2010-10-24T21:23:50Z")
Quoth **Randy Seltzer** : > [@](#): > > But Emperor Maximilian II did not have any daughters named Helène. That threw me at first, too, but I think that the daughter’s name was Scharfequinn. “The fair Helene” is metonymous, comparing her to Helen of Sparta, not her own name. I don’t know about any historical Maximilians who really did have a daughter named Scharfequinn, though. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/22 "2010-10-25T12:46:38Z")
That’s a good point: I hadn’t considered that. Although you’re also correct to point out that Maximilian II didn’t have any daughters by that other name either. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/23 "2010-10-25T13:31:24Z")
Okay, after a little more googling, I’ve discovered that the 1884 book that that website quotes is actually plagiarized almost word-for-word from an 18th Century French work, published in a quarterly periodical, Ouvres complettes de M. de Saint-Foix: Historiographe des Ordres du Roi from 1778. [Google books link](http://books.google.com/books?id=jXWOk6K1ctQC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293#v=onepage&q&f=false) My french is a little rusty, and I’m can’t copy-paste it into an internet translator, so here’s the best I can do: > [@](#): > > Two gentlemen, one a Spaniard and the other a German, recommended by their birth and by the services that they had rendered to the Emperor Maximilien II, asked him for the hand of the beautiful _Hélène Scharfequinn_, his natural daughter. That Prince (?), after some delays, told them one day that he esteemed them equally, and could not (something) on a preference, their own strength and address would decide it; but he (something) not wish to risk the loss of one or the other, and perhaps both, permit the two of them to combat with offensive arms, he ordered the creation of a large sack, and (something) (something) to put his rival inside, would obtain the girl. This such strange combat between the Gentlemen happened before the the Imperial Court and lasted close to an hour. Finally, the Spaniard succumbed; and the German, _André Eberhard, Baron de Talbert_, got him into the sack, and taking it on his back, deposited it at the feet of the Emperor, and the next day married the beautiful _Hélène Scharfequinn_ [ul][_]The words “Hélène Scharfequinn” are set out in italics by themselves, which makes me reconsider the metonymy theory.[_]The original version leaves out anything about falling in love or paying court to the woman. [_]The original version has the Spaniard succumbing instead of yielding. [_]The original version has the winner putting the now-full sack at the feet of the Emperor, which makes more sense than the 19th Century version, where it is given to the girl.[\*]The original version gives a name for the German victor (i.e. André Eberhard, Baron de Talbert). Maybe that would help an intrepid researcher figure out the veracity of this story? Maybe something along the lines of Andrew or Andreas Eberhard?[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/24 "2010-10-25T15:41:50Z")
It’s written about plenty in Hindu mythology. Both Draupadi and Sita were supposedly won in the old ways of “swayamvara”: > **[Svayamvara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swayamvara)** > > Svayamvara (Sanskrit: स्वयंवर, romanized: svayaṃvara) is a type of marriage mentioned in Hindu history where a woman chose a man as her husband from a group of suitors. Svayaṁ in Sanskrit means 'self' and vara means 'groom'. The bride wishing to marry would select an auspicious time and venue and then broadcast her intentions. Kings typically sent messengers to outside lands, while commoners simply spread the news within the local community. On the appointed day, suitors would gather at the venu... Wiki has only myths and legends. Was a swayamvara ever real? I am not entirely sure, and a brief googling provides no illumination, unfortunately. I can’t say it’s not real, though, I can definitely see it happening to some high-born princessess…but you would think there would be some records of it. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/25 "2010-10-25T15:45:07Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Okay, after a little more googling, I’ve discovered that the 1884 book that that website quotes is actually plagiarized almost word-for-word from an 18th Century French work… The original version also seems to identify the girl as his natural daughter, which I understand to mean illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/26 "2010-10-25T20:55:11Z")
Arranged marriages come to mind, i am sure there is many cases where the womens family picks out her mate and in many cases the men who want to wed her probably boost about themselves and try and do last minute things to look like a better choice, thats sorta an unoffical contest ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/27 "2010-10-25T21:12:38Z")
In cultures with slavery, it’s not hard to imagine a slave girl being offered as a prize in a contest, or even a raffle. But a princess? That’s harder to swallow. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044/28 "2010-10-26T07:07:48Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Aren’t most cultures with a “[bride price](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price)” essentially a bidding contest between families or suitors if your have a desirable girl to marry off? And leads to stories like the Lovers of Teruel, who sound like a legend only they happened to be real: suitor acceptable to bride is rejected by parents due to lack of funds, requests time to go make it rich, comes back shortly after her marriage, dies of a broken heart; during his funeral, a veiled woman approaches the coffin, hugs it and dies - their side-by-side graves, with the statues on top holding hands across the intervening space, are possibly the most beautiful funerary monument in Spain. While not a contest in the sense of “joust the other guy, marry the princess”, the poor rejected suitor sure worked a lot harder than your average wannabe groom. (google images amantes de teruel for pics) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-any-womans-hand-in-marriage-ever-been-offered-as-a-prize-in-a-contest/558044.md?page=1)