# Has anybody else ever woken up one morning to find they're no longer in love... with Downton Abbey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 8, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200 "2014-01-08T00:11:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chicken\_Fingers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Chicken\_Fingers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicken_Fingers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/41 "2014-01-13T20:16:55Z")
I’ve enjoyed the show all along, but in my opinion it’s always been horribly written. Sappy, soapy, melodramatic, with ridiculous plots, poor characterization, and anachronisms, each season getting worse. Still, it’s lots of fun and good costumes. It was never more than a pretty face. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/42 "2014-01-13T20:34:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I enjoyed the first season, though I felt there was one sister too many clogging up the works. I then lasted about eight minutes into season two when I walked away. My reason - Fellowes’ vision of World War I trench life was so pathetically awful that it made my teeth hurt. Honestly, _Blackadder_ had a more realistic take. Stick to the drawing rooms, Julie baby. Fellowes’ handling of WWI pretty much sickened me, too. Why bother with the trenches? He had a house full of wounded officers. Why weren’t any of them allowed to speak of what they’d seen? The only ones we met were (1) the blind one that Thomas loved–who died, (2) the disfigured one who posed as The Heir–only Poor Edith believed him, and (3) the one who knocked up a maid–he died, too. Nope, Robert was annoyed by the lot of them–daring to take up room in his cavernous pile. All the while, he was in uniform. Of course, the whole season started off on the wrong foot. The first one ended with the declaration of war. The next one began a couple of years into the war. We didn’t see anybody march off. We didn’t hear of disenchantment with The Great Adventure. (That time skip also screwed up some personal stories.) ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/43 "2014-01-13T21:40:44Z")
I really enjoyed the first two seasons. I endured my way through season 3. When they killed off Matthew and I didn’t even care, I was pretty sure the love was gone. I haven’t even started watching season 4, though I am still recording it. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/44 "2014-01-13T22:51:04Z")
WWI is another example of **Upstairs Downstairs** doing it better. Well, they didn’t do the trenches better, but there was a scene with one of the characters describing what it was like in the trenches, and it was extremely effective. UD isn’t as pretty to look at as DA, but the story moves more quickly and the characters actually develop. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/45 "2014-01-13T22:58:52Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Fellowes’ handling of WWI pretty much sickened me, too… Don’t forget he completely glossed over Sybil’s time at nursing college. Yeah it was nice seeing Daisy and Mrs Patmore teach her how to boil a cake and make water, what I really wanted to see was her living in a dorm with other women without servants for the first time and having to do actual work. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/46 "2014-01-14T05:02:33Z")
Last night featured Robert’s snobbishness towards Nellie Melba. I would believe him not dining with a violinist or a soloist from the village, but it did not ring true that he would treat an international superstar and Dame that way. It’s not like she was some second-tier wedding singer from Brisbane, she was the most popular and highest paid opera singer of her day, had literally dined with royalty and presidents by this time, was probably richer than anybody there besides Robert (possibly more cash than him), and his guests would probably have been dying to say they’d had dinner with her. I could see him snubbing Bert Williams or maybe even Al Jolson (if he could have afforded him), but not Dame Nellie Melba, who Buckingham Palace treated as an honored dinner guest. ---
**Author:** ![Savannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Savannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savannah)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/47 "2014-01-14T06:11:08Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > My current theory: because it’s SUCH a false and distorted picture of the whole phenomenon of class hierarchy. For example, in D.O., the servants are absolutely assured that The Family will take care of them financially for their entire lives, no matter what illness might strike them. And The Family are absolutely assured that the servants love them devotedly. And both Family and servants are quite chummy…why, they’re _friends_, really! Good, good _friends_! 🙂 > > This is _not_, to say the least, an accurate portrayal of the class system in early 20th century Britain. The servants and Family really were _not_ friends at all. I really enjoyed a documentary called “Servants: The True Story of Life Below Stairs”. Un-rosy. https://www.youtube.com/embed/bl9M8Z0enaM?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Anyone who’s read good literature set in the past or history, I think, would roll their eyes at the chummy relationship between the family and the servants. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/48 "2014-01-14T21:17:07Z")
> [@Savannah](#): > > I really enjoyed a documentary called “Servants: The True Story of Life Below Stairs”. Un-rosy. > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl9M8Z0enaM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl9M8Z0enaM) > Anyone who’s read good literature set in the past or history, I think, would roll their eyes at the chummy relationship between the family and the servants. Agreed (and thanks for the link–I’ll check that out). > [@Sampiro](#): > > Last night featured Robert’s snobbishness towards Nellie Melba. I would believe him not dining with a violinist or a soloist from the village, but it did not ring true that he would treat an international superstar and Dame that way. It’s not like she was some second-tier wedding singer from Brisbane, she was the most popular and highest paid opera singer of her day, had literally dined with royalty and presidents by this time, was probably richer than anybody there besides Robert (possibly more cash than him), and his guests would probably have been dying to say they’d had dinner with her. I could see him snubbing Bert Williams or maybe even Al Jolson (if he could have afforded him), but not Dame Nellie Melba, who Buckingham Palace treated as an honored dinner guest. Yes, that plotline was ridiculously implausible. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/49 "2014-01-16T21:52:17Z")
Several days later, I remain bothered by this (and I’m not going to spoiler-box it, but will omit character names): Julian Fellowes sent a very clear message in episode three of the fourth season: What a good, virtuous, sensible woman does when beaten and raped is _keep quiet about it_. This is what is right; this is what is proper. It is the only way she can protect her menfolk—who certainly cannot be expected to control _themselves_, for heaven’s sake! By keeping quiet, she protects her man, who would (since he simply cannot be expected to control himself) attack the rapist–putting her man in danger of imprisonment. So what the smart, loving, caring, good woman does when beaten and raped is: belt up. Fellowes chose, as vehicle for this message, a character who has been presented as a model of intelligence, integrity, and common sense. So, no matter what developments may be in later episodes—her decision in this episode to KEEP QUIET has great force. She is a role model for being a Good Woman. And this is what a Good Woman does. Even if she changes her mind later, the fact is that this was the conclusion this smart, decent woman came to. …And that truly does send a message. I’m dismayed that this doesn’t seem to bother others (or not enough to post, anyway). How is the ‘_good_ women keep quiet about being raped’ message _not_ misogynist? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/50 "2014-01-16T22:59:38Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I’m dismayed that this doesn’t seem to bother others (or not enough to post, anyway). How is the ‘_good_ women keep quiet about being raped’ message _not_ misogynist? I didn’t interpret it as a good woman keeps quiet, but that any woman in those times would keep quiet. I don’t think Ethel or Edna would have behaved any differently, and they’re not being presented as particularly “good”. The woman who was raped is strong and resourceful but she’s a woman of her times and she is protective of her husband and her position. Also, we haven’t yet seen what she might yet do, after the initial shock has passed. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/51 "2014-01-16T23:16:12Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I didn’t interpret it as a good woman keeps quiet, but that any woman in those times would keep quiet. I don’t think Ethel or Edna would have behaved any differently, and they’re not being presented as particularly “good”. > The woman who was raped is strong and resourceful but she’s a woman of her times and she is protective of her husband and her position. If this show had a record of scrupulous accuracy where ‘period behavior’ is concerned, I might find this argument convincing. But it really does not have such a record. The chumminess between servants and masters is just one example of the show’s distortions of the way people of the period were likely to behave. > [@AuntiePam](#): > > Also, we haven’t yet seen what she might yet do, after the initial shock has passed. Opinions on this will differ, of course, but as I said, I find the initial conclusion the character came to to be significant. I do believe it sends a message in a way that any later developments will not. In addition, I think that this choice of character makes the message more pointed. She has always been presented as the one who isn’t a ditherer; isn’t prone to making foolish mistakes; isn’t frivolous in her decisions. So I think that does drive the message home in a way that might not have been the case, had the victim been one of the more easily-confused, error-prone characters. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/52 "2014-01-16T23:47:14Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Several days later, I remain bothered by this (and I’m not going to spoiler-box it, but will omit character names): > > Julian Fellowes sent a very clear message in episode three of the fourth season: What a good, virtuous, sensible woman does when beaten and raped is _keep quiet about it_. > > This is what is right; this is what is proper. It is the only way she can protect her menfolk—who certainly cannot be expected to control _themselves_, for heaven’s sake! By keeping quiet, she protects her man, who would (since he simply cannot be expected to control himself) attack the rapist–putting her man in danger of imprisonment. > > So what the smart, loving, caring, good woman does when beaten and raped is: belt up. > > Fellowes chose, as vehicle for this message, a character who has been presented as a model of intelligence, integrity, and common sense. So, no matter what developments may be in later episodes—her decision in this episode to KEEP QUIET has great force. She is a role model for being a Good Woman. And this is what a Good Woman does. Even if she changes her mind later, the fact is that this was the conclusion this smart, decent woman came to. …And that truly does send a message. > > I’m dismayed that this doesn’t seem to bother others (or not enough to post, anyway). How is the ‘_good_ women keep quiet about being raped’ message _not_ misogynist? OK, I hate the rape storyline and have seen it to the conclusion, but for all of his writing faults regarding the rape, Julian Fellowes is emphatically **not** trying to say that “good women keep quiet regarding a rape.” :rolleyes: A woman of her stature (housemaid) during the 1920s would not behave the same way as a woman of today. And he is not saying that her decision to keep quiet is a _good_ one! It’s pretty much the opposite! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/53 "2014-01-17T00:46:13Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > If this show had a record of scrupulous accuracy where ‘period behavior’ is concerned, I might find this argument convincing. But it really does not have such a record. The chumminess between servants and masters is just one example of the show’s distortions of the way people of the period were likely to behave. > > Opinions on this will differ, of course, but as I said, I find the initial conclusion the character came to to be significant. I do believe it sends a message in a way that any later developments will not. > > In addition, I think that this choice of character makes the message more pointed. She has always been presented as the one who isn’t a ditherer; isn’t prone to making foolish mistakes; isn’t frivolous in her decisions. So I think that does drive the message home in a way that might not have been the case, had the victim been one of the more easily-confused, error-prone characters. I find your comments quite cryptic. I can’t figure out what your point is. That the rape victim should have spoken up or should not have? That she was a woman of her time or that she was not? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/54 "2014-01-17T02:59:37Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I find your comments quite cryptic. I can’t figure out what your point is. That the rape victim should have spoken up or should not have? That she was a woman of her time or that she was not? Well, for one thing I don’t think we can analyze plot developments in D.A. based on a purported D.A. fidelity to historical accuracy which doesn’t actually exist. Let’s face it, the show is popular because it mixes and matches current and presumably-historical elements with a certain amount of abandon. As to whether I approve of the message (which I still believe that Fellowes was, consciously or not, intending to convey) that _What A Good Woman Does Is Think First of Her Unable-To-Control-Himself Man And Shut Up About The Rape_…I do not. It’s very old-school thinking (particularly the bit about the man being unable to control himself, and implicitly being excused from any expectation that he control himself, in revenging the insult to his honor/the violation of his property). Granted, part of what brings viewers to _Downton Abbey_ in the first place _is_ a fantasy-return to Old School Thinking (which may or may not correspond to _actual_ 1920s British Nobility values). But this ‘Men Can’t Be Expected To Control Themselves’ crap is really beyond the pale. (In my opinion.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/55 "2014-01-17T08:21:06Z")
The Turk (sorry- name eludes me) in the first season was a sexual predator. I wouldn’t call his sex with Lady Mary rape exactly, but he definitely took advantage of her. She of course also kept silent about it, but it was due to his death after (cause she’s all that). ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/56 "2014-01-17T20:36:31Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The Turk (sorry- name eludes me) in the first season was a sexual predator. I wouldn’t call his sex with Lady Mary rape exactly, but he definitely took advantage of her. She of course also kept silent about it, but it was due to his death after (cause she’s all that). Yes, if he hadn’t died, that would have created a plot development similar to this one. (As in: how did women of that era–above stairs or below–react to being raped?) I agree with points that have been made along the lines of ‘it’s unlikely that the woman would go to the police.’ But in the case of a below-stairs woman being raped: she would know quite well that no household would welcome rapists among their staff. If the man did it once, it’s unlikely that he’d refrain from doing it again. A below-stairs woman would feel an obligation to her employer (even if the rapist is part of the household staff of a friend of her employer, rather than of her employer himself) to make the facts known. Otherwise, there might be a scene along the lines of “you knew this man was prone to attacking members of staff and you said nothing?? You are discharged!” ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/57 "2014-01-17T21:56:39Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > …But in the case of a below-stairs woman being raped: she would know quite well that no household would welcome rapists among their staff. If the man did it once, it’s unlikely that he’d refrain from doing it again. A below-stairs woman would feel an obligation to her employer (even if the rapist is part of the household staff of a friend of her employer, rather than of her employer himself) to make the facts known. > > Otherwise, there might be a scene along the lines of “you knew this man was prone to attacking members of staff and you said nothing?? You are discharged!” I think this is WAAAY too modern an attitude to be found at Downton Abbey. I submit the following paragraph from an article about a book on the history of defining rape as a crime. The article appeared in _The Guardian_, [“Rape: a Burning Injustice” (August 13, 2013)](http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/13/rape-defined-sexual-crime-history). The book is _Redefining Rape: Sexual Violence in the Era of Suffrage and Segregation_ by Estelle B Freedman. > [@](#): > > By the 1920s, attitudes shifted from the patronising and paternalistic to blame and culpability of the victims. Men in positions of authority expressed concerns about false accusations of rape by children and adult women and judges began to behave punitively to those making complaints. Women and girls were sexualised and deemed responsible for rape. The American Journal of Urology and Sexology in 1918 and 1919 ran articles warning lawyers to “the great danger that men are often in from false accusations by female children and women”. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/58 "2014-01-17T22:33:38Z")
Honestly, isn’t that the most common, normal, human reaction to anything bad happening? Not wanting to tell people, trying to keep quiet, muddling through as best you can because _you just don’t want to deal with it_ and will cling to whatever justification you can find so you don’t have to? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/59 "2014-01-17T22:41:42Z")
I think the rape will come to be seen as the jumping of the shark. It capped two absolutely dreadful episodes, shot like Culver City sitcoms, and goes against the grain of all the prior character development. (Bottom line: she should have told Grantham and had him handle it before Bates could do anything. The whole bit about the servants being assured of being taken care of was thrown out the window there, to set up what I’m sure will be Truly Wrenching Developments about the State of Women in That Era.) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200/60 "2014-01-17T23:36:21Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I think the rape will come to be seen as the jumping of the shark. It capped two absolutely dreadful episodes, shot like Culver City sitcoms, and goes against the grain of all the prior character development. > > (Bottom line: she should have told Grantham and had him handle it before Bates could do anything. I absolutely agree. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The whole bit about the servants being assured of being taken care of was thrown out the window there, to set up what I’m sure will be Truly Wrenching Developments about the State of Women in That Era.) Intriguing observation. That would actually be an interesting plot development! (So…probably unlikely.:() [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anybody-else-ever-woken-up-one-morning-to-find-theyre-no-longer-in-love-with-downton-abbey/678200.md?page=4)