# Has anyone calculated how much human capital humanity lost due to the persecution of the Jews in ww2 **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 8, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434 "2016-07-08T21:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/1 "2016-07-08T21:27:12Z")
Jews make up a disproportionate percentage of scientists, physicians, researchers, mathematicians, etc. They make up about 25% of nobel prize winners and fields medal winners as well as a lot of entertainers. Has anyone calculated how many potential fields medal winners, nobel prize winners, researchers, etc. humanity lost due to WW2? The world current has about 14 million Jews, and it lost 6 million about 70 years ago during the holocaust. I believe humanity still has fewer Jews than it did pre-ww2 when there were 15 million. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/2 "2016-07-08T22:26:08Z")
I don’t think the loss could/should be calculated in terms of human “capital.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/3 "2016-07-08T22:32:29Z")
I do however. I’m sure we lost a few Einsteins in the holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/4 "2016-07-08T23:19:36Z")
Since I can’t see any factual way this could be calculated, let’s move this to IMHO. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/5 "2016-07-08T23:21:37Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Since I can’t see any factual way this could be calculated, let’s move this to IMHO. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator So close! (it got sent to Cafe Society instead. reported) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/6 "2016-07-08T23:27:00Z")
An Israeli professor has [calculated that](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090422121852.htm), had there been no attempt to murder all of Europe’s Jews, that their global population today would be somewhere between 26 million to 32 million (another [Israeli professor](http://www.timesofisrael.com/what-if-the-holocaust-had-never-happened/) puts it at 28-32 million), whereas their actual population is about 14 million. If you take the lowest estimate, 26 is double 14, if you wanted to extrapolate from that you might say we only got half the Jewish Nobel prize winners and scientists that we would have had if the Final Solution had not happened, but that’s assuming that the ability to win Nobel prizes is equally distributed through the Jewish population. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/7 "2016-07-09T01:50:17Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I don’t think the loss could/should be calculated in terms of human “capital.” It certainly can be estimated – see above – and I don’t really see any reason it shouldn’t be. It’s just one more measure of how horrific it was, and a way to show that the loss wasn’t just to Judaism (and the other persecuted categories) but a loss to humanity as a whole. Who can ever know what musical compositions, paintings, poems, novels, scientific discoveries, health-care innovations, etc. were denied to our civilization because of the madness. This can also be applied to the war casualties among the younger generations of WWI and WWII, or to the depopulation of Germany in the Thirty Years War, or, almost as hellish as anything in our time, the rampage of the Mongols over India and Persia. Entire civilizations were annihilated. If none of these things had happened…would we have colonies around Jupiter by now? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/8 "2016-07-09T03:57:48Z")
Unless you believe Jewish individuals are special in some way, it doesn’t stand to reason that more Jews means more Jewish laureates. Winning a Nobel is often not just about doing exceptional work, but also being lucky enough to be alive when your work is recognized, living in one of a handful of countries, working in a certain field, and just sheer luck. There were a ton of forces that pushed Jews into the sciences, and there were often quotas that excluded many… No war probably means fewer Jews in the US which also probably means fewer Jewish laureates. That’s even putting aside the issue that the number of Jews in the world is not just based on demographics, but also choice and observance. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/9 "2016-07-09T15:39:35Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Unless you believe Jewish individuals are special in some way. > **[Are Jews Smarter? What Genetic Science Tells Us - Nymag](https://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/1478/index1.html)** > > Did Jewish intelligence evolve in tandem with Jewish diseases as a result of discrimination in the ghettos of medieval Europe? That’s the premise of a controversial new study that has some preening and others plotzing. What genetic science can \[...\] > **[Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence#Evidence_for_a_group_difference_in_intelligence)** > > Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, often referred to as "Jewish genius", is the stereotype that Ashkenazi Jews tend to have a higher intelligence than other ethnic groups. > Jewish success in many intellectual fields often prompts the stereotype. Many who argue for Jewish intelligence have pointed out the List of Jewish Nobel laureates amassing 22% of Nobel Prizes across all scientific categories while Jewish people comprise only 0.2% of global population at roughly 14 million people. Even a small in... ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/10 "2016-07-09T16:01:18Z")
I think the flaw in the reasoning can be analogous to a parallel argument about Black Africa. If slavery had never occurred, and all Blacks were left in Africa, would Africa now have all the benefit of the intellectual achievement of Black Americans, who instead would have contributed their potential to the development of Africa’s culture and economy? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/11 "2016-07-09T17:23:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > [Are Jews Smarter? What Genetic Science Tells Us - Nymag](http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/1478/index1.html) > > [Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence#Evidence_for_a_group_difference_in_intelligence) Do you actually believe that? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/12 "2016-07-09T17:25:49Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Unless you believe Jewish individuals are special in some way, it doesn’t stand to reason that more Jews means more Jewish laureates. … Not necessarily - you might believe that the emphasis on learning is greater in Jewish cultures than in other cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/13 "2016-07-09T18:33:19Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Do you actually believe that? That Ashkenazi Jews have a higher innate baseline for talent compared to other groups and therefore make up a disproportionate % of people at the higher echelons of STEM fields, medicine, art, politics, etc? Yes I believe that. In 1933 Jews made up 0.7% of the citizens of Germany. But they made up 11% of physicians, 16% of lawyers, about 30% of college professors. I believe 17 nobel prize winners from Germany from 1907-1930 were Jewish. [https://www2.bc.edu/john-heineman/Jews.html](https://www2.bc.edu/john-heineman/Jews.html) ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/14 "2016-07-09T18:58:16Z")
that’s just cultural. They encouraged their boys to go into those fields. Kind of like some sub-cultures in the US encourage boys to get into football or basketball, or join the military. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/15 "2016-07-09T21:41:38Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I think the flaw in the reasoning can be analogous to a parallel argument about Black Africa. If slavery had never occurred, and all Blacks were left in Africa, would Africa now have all the benefit of the intellectual achievement of Black Americans, who instead would have contributed their potential to the development of Africa’s culture and economy? No…but they might have benefited from the security and comfort of not being hunted like animals. They might have spent more effort on arts and governance, and less on arming themselves against their neighbors. Slavery definitely held back the proper natural development of western Africa, perhaps not as profoundly as the Conquistadores slaughtered Inca civilization, but strongly. Also, without colonialism, embassies from Europe might have been more educational than compulsory, and Africa might have been happier to learn the benefits of what Europe had to offer. If Europe had come to the Americas and Africa as peaceful partners, rather than as conquerors, the history of the world might be a lot rosier. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/16 "2016-07-09T21:59:10Z")
Saying “that’s just cultural” shows a facile understanding of the extent to which critical thinking and scholarship are fundamental to the traditional practice of Judaism. If scholarship, and thus intelligence, is truly revered in a population, it wouldn’t be surprising if over the centuries, that tendency caused the population to self-select for intelligence, and the intelligence level of the overall population to rise as a result. That emphasis on scholarship cerainly did and does explain why Jewish kids are enouraged to go into such fields, but the underpinnings and results of that culture are complex. I believe that it is impossible to objectively measure intelligence and/or success in a way that cuts through cultural biases and so forth. That said, given the typical metrics by which Americans and Europeans measure such things, Ashkenazi Jews are unusually successful. (Is it just me that finds it awfully amusing that the two posters rejecting the idea of higher innate intelligence amongst the Askenazi have trayf user names?) ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/17 "2016-07-09T22:43:11Z")
Would the Ashkenazi Jews link to page 2 of an article? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/18 "2016-07-09T23:50:56Z")
I remember hearing years ago from Fareed Z. that a study was done to calculate wasted productive man-hours spent playing Angry Birds. It was astronomical! Therefor, I put forth that “Angry Birds = Hitler”. Gimme my Nobel Prize and the _Monnnney!_ ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/19 "2016-07-10T00:21:39Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Not necessarily - you might believe that the emphasis on learning is greater in Jewish cultures than in other cultures. I do believe that. However, excellence on the level of a Nobel winner is not just a byproduct of being really smart. Asia, Africa, the Mdddle East and South America have tons of smart people, but relatively few Nobel winners. Laureates disproportionately come from rich, Western countries. If there is no Holocaust, do as many Jews end up in the US? Does rampant antisemitism last longer? Who knows. I just don’t think you can just assume a greater number of smart Jewish people being alive means more will end up winning Nobel prizes. Plus, you need to keep in mind that that 25% Jewish Nobel winner stat is greatly padded given they include non-practicing Jews and people with one Jewish grandparent. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > That Ashkenazi Jews have a higher innate baseline for talent compared to other groups and therefore make up a disproportionate % of people at the higher echelons of STEM fields, medicine, art, politics, etc? Yes I believe that. Even when people like Harry Ostrer, the head of NYU’s human-genetics program, say, “It’s bad science—not because it’s provocative, but because it’s bad genetics and bad epidemiology”? And he’s not alone for the record. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In 1933 Jews made up 0.7% of the citizens of Germany. But they made up 11% of physicians, 16% of lawyers, about 30% of college professors. I believe 17 nobel prize winners from Germany from 1907-1930 were Jewish. And roughly 10 years later, Jews dominated professional basketball in the US. Should we assume that Jews have an innate talent for basketball and similar sports? > [@Green\_Bean](#): > > If scholarship, and thus intelligence, is truly revered in a population, it wouldn’t be surprising if over the centuries, that tendency caused the population to self-select for intelligence, and the intelligence level of the overall population to rise as a result. Maybe, but being good looking and smart are revered in most societies today, and plenty of ugly, dumb people walking around procreating. You have hit on something, but I think you are missing the real salient effect here. You can _choose_ to stop being Jewish. When the going got tough, people quit. Jews were roughly 10% of the population of the Roman Empire. Those numbers mean we should have roughly 200 million Jews today instead of just 14 million or so. Yes, mass killings had a huge effect, but a lot was just people deciding to stop being Jewish because the scholastic and cultural demands (among other things) were not something they wanted to do. Thus, the remaining pool is probably smarter. Not because people with “Jewish genes” are inherently smarter, but rather because the decision to live as a Jew tends to attract people who are smarter than average. Kinda like how Harvard grads, people from Shanghai, and Nigerian-Americans are smarter than average. > [@Green\_Bean](#): > > That said, given the typical metrics by which Americans and Europeans measure such things, Ashkenazi Jews are unusually successful. So are Mormons and Nigerian-Americans. Do you think there is something about Nigerian genes that makes them successful? ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434/20 "2016-07-10T00:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Saying “that’s just cultural” shows a facile understanding of the extent to which critical thinking and scholarship are fundamental to the traditional practice of Judaism. If scholarship, and thus intelligence, is truly revered in a population, it wouldn’t be surprising if over the centuries, that tendency caused the population to self-select for intelligence, and the intelligence level of the overall population to rise as a result. You’re assuming the pushing boys to go into scholarship had some effect on the reproductive success of said boys. Which seems unlikely considering the innate sexual preferences of women. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-calculated-how-much-human-capital-humanity-lost-due-to-the-persecution-of-the-jews-in-ww2/759434.md?page=2)