# Has anyone dared to suggest that 9/11 shouldn't have been that big of a deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751 "2009-05-17T15:38:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/21 "2009-05-17T20:16:52Z")
I’ve always thought 9/11 was way overblown. I think in our society there’s a trend towards something of a … recreational victimhood. I’m not quite sure why, but a lot of people get a perverse and perhaps unconcious enjoyment of being a victim. Like they get to be some part of a special club. So all the weepy talk coming from Nebraska or California in the days, weeks, and months after the event from weepy people talking about what had been done to them personally weirded me out. Even now, when someone mentions a movie or something that features shots of the New York skyline, people will have to say “those buildings doesn’t exist anymore! ☹ :(” Somehow I doubt that in 1941, after Pearl Harbor, people spent a lot of time relishing their victim status. They got pissed, got over it, and kicked ass. We’re such pussies now. To answer the practical questions, I think we probably would be better off now if we did nothing at all in response to 9/11. Which isn’t to say that it didn’t justify a response, but rather, it was used as a crisis to drum up blind obedience to the government and allowed those in charge an excuse they’ve been waiting for to push through agendas that were otherwise untenable but suddenly with the rise of “support the government no matter what!” idiotic fervor were possible. Was Afghanistan, beefed up human intelligence, port security, etc. worth the cost of the blind obedience to the government, the notion that anyone who questions the president is a traitor, Iraq, Patriot Act, Guantanamo, torture, etc. worth it? Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/22 "2009-05-17T20:45:16Z")
[Here it is](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/09/24/010924ta_talk_wtc) Susan Sontag’s response is notable ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/23 "2009-05-17T21:00:59Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Here it is](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/09/24/010924ta_talk_wtc) > > Susan Sontag’s response is notable Wow, that was ballsy to say 13 days after the fact. But I do not detect the “we deserved it” or “no love lost for America” that you are getting. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/24 "2009-05-17T21:38:01Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wow, that was ballsy to say 13 days after the fact. But I do not detect the “we deserved it” or “no love lost for America” that you are getting. The tone I got from her response was that by and large the attackers were probably justifiably reacting to American oppression in one form or another and thus (in some way) the attack was our just deserts. I think the "no love lost for America’ is pretty self evident. [Here is a site that has collected a number of reactions across the board.](http://cases.som.yale.edu/9-11/index.php?page=1&subMenu=) > [@](#): > > PUBLIC INTELLECTUALS > ACKNOWLEDGMENTS > > Public Intellectuals > Christopher Hitchens | Susan Sontag | Thomas Sowell | Muslim Scholars | Western Analysis of Islam | > Susan Sontag > [Susan Sontag, an American novelist and literary critic, in a September 24, 2001, article in The New Yorker, said that the attacks were the acts of courageous victims of American oppression](http://cases.som.yale.edu/9-11/index.php?page=5&subMenu=2&option=Susan%20Sontag): > > . . . The voices licensed to follow the event seem to have joined together in a campaign to infantilize the public. Where is the acknowledgement that this was not a “cowardly” attack on “civilization” or “liberty” or “humanity” or “the free world” but an attack on the world’s self-proclaimed super-power, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions? How many citizens are aware of the ongoing American bombing of Iraq? And if the word “cowardly” is to be used, it might be more aptly applied to those who kill from beyond the range of retaliation, high in the sky, than to those willing to die themselves in order to kill others. In the matter of courage (a morally neutral virtue): whatever may be said of the perpetrators of Tuesday’s slaughter, they were not cowards. . . . ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/25 "2009-05-17T22:00:51Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > I seriously doubt it. Terrorists, actually, aren’t really all that out to get us. Simple fact that if they were, they would’ve been pretty successful by now, whatever precautions we “took” after Sept 11. (I remember a book or article about all the ways terrorists could fuck with us, like drive around in vans sniping people out. Don’t tell me the DHS or the patriot act have saved us from that.) I hope to God that not many people think like that. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/26 "2009-05-17T22:09:06Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The tone I got from her response was that by and large the attackers were probably justifiably reacting to American oppression in one form or another and thus (in some way) the attack was our just deserts. I think the "no love lost for America’ is pretty self evident. > > [Here is a site that has collected a number of reactions across the board.](http://cases.som.yale.edu/9-11/index.php?page=1&subMenu=) That’s because …, well, I’ll make no assumptions about you. I’ll just say that she wrote nothing of the kind. Read it again: [QUOTE=Susan Sontag] Where is the acknowledgement that this was not a “cowardly” attack on “civilization” or “liberty” or “humanity” or “the free world” but an attack on the world’s self-proclaimed super-power, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions? [/QUOTE] Correct in every particular. Actions have consequences. Even good actions have bad consequences, and America’s actions have not been uniformly good. I think everyone has acknowledged that 9/11 was a big deal; what Sontag and others tried to point out is that it should have been no surprise. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/27 "2009-05-17T22:11:55Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The tone I got from her response was that by and large the attackers were probably justifiably reacting to American oppression in one form or another and thus (in some way) the attack was our just deserts. I think the "no love lost for America’ is pretty self evident. > > [Here is a site that has collected a number of reactions across the board.](http://cases.som.yale.edu/9-11/index.php?page=1&subMenu=) There is a difference between understanding an action, and thinking it is justified. Like, understanding that a father might want to revenge the killer of his daughter, and to think that it is justified. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/28 "2009-05-17T22:13:11Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The tone I got from her response was that by and large the attackers were probably justifiably reacting to American oppression in one form or another and thus (in some way) the attack was our just deserts. I think the "no love lost for America’ is pretty self evident. > > [Here is a site that has collected a number of reactions across the board.](http://cases.som.yale.edu/9-11/index.php?page=1&subMenu=). > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by whoever compiled those commentaries_ > > Susan Sontag > > Susan Sontag, an American novelist and literary critic, in a September 24, 2001, article in The New Yorker, said that the attacks were the acts of courageous victims of American oppression: Quite apart from the fact that the full text of the commentary sort of oversteps fair use, the phrase “attacks were the acts of courageous victims of American oppression” does not appear in that text. I don’t object to someone extrapolating from what is in the text. I do object to having the conclusion of that extrapolation thrust upon me without the benefit of the intervening rationalizatons. P.S. **flonks** , “revenge” is a noun. “Avenge” is a verb. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/29 "2009-05-17T22:16:25Z")
thanks … ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/30 "2009-05-17T22:28:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > P.S. **flonks** , “revenge” is a noun. “Avenge” is a verb. **kaylasdad** , _revenge_ can be either a verb or a noun, though you’re correct in your implication that **flonks** usage was incorrect. As a verb, _revenge_ means “to avenge oneself of wrong by retaliating” or “to inflict injury.” One revenges an insult or an injury. One avenges another person who has been injured or killed. In revenging the 9-11 attack, former President Bush sought to avenge those innocents who died that day. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/31 "2009-05-17T22:40:41Z")
No, I don’t think he did. I think he was really seeking to show everybody how big his dick was. Don’t worry, I got the correction. Thanks for fighting my ignorance. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/32 "2009-05-17T22:41:42Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The tone I got from her response was that by and large the attackers were probably justifiably reacting to American oppression in one form or another and thus (in some way) the attack was our just deserts. I think the "no love lost for America’ is pretty self evident. Again, I didn’t get that at all. Maybe you were looking for it, or it was suggested to you by the types of people she’s crticizing to look for it. > [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I hope to God that not many people think like that. Don’t worry, last time I checked he’s between \< 1% of the population and ~4.6%, depending on which poll you trust. Neither is a significant number. ---
**Author:** ![MarcinCiez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@MarcinCiez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcinCiez)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/33 "2009-05-17T22:42:07Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I hope to God that not many people think like that. I really didn’t want to get into this topic, but I just had to in agreement with Alex. If someone was hell bent on getting you, they would do much more damage than selective attacks on symbolic locations. The reason why these places were selected? Becasue it showed americans - “we\* too can fight”. Hey, these terrorists could have easily slipped into the US society (before 9/11), somewhere in the sticks and silently killed of individuals one by one in their homes… hell… place 100 terrorists, each one told to kill 40 people, preferably without being caught… total number 4000. Bring in or recruit an army of 1000 individuals. Each one to kill 50 people… 50000 dead. They didn’t do that. They just wanted to show, that “we too can kill your people on your soil, just like you are doing to us”. Marty - not “we” as in “me” :eek: PS… The above was an example and not a logistics exercise. PS… I’m not defending war… War is evil… the world would be better if people just loved each other. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/34 "2009-05-17T22:58:04Z")
> [@MarcinCiez](#): > > I really didn’t want to get into this topic, but I just had to in agreement with Alex. If someone was hell bent on getting you, they would do much more damage than selective attacks on symbolic locations. The reason why these places were selected? Becasue it showed americans - “we\* too can fight”. Hey, these terrorists could have easily slipped into the US society (before 9/11), somewhere in the sticks and silently killed of individuals one by one in their homes… hell… place 100 terrorists, each one told to kill 40 people, preferably without being caught… total number 4000. Bring in or recruit an army of 1000 individuals. Each one to kill 50 people… 50000 dead. > > They didn’t do that. They just wanted to show, that “we too can kill your people on your soil, just like you are doing to us”. “Those people who destroyed 2 of your largest and most important buildings, attacked your national military headquarters, tried to destroy the seat of one branch of your federal government, killed 3,000 of your citizens, and by their own admission, planned to do a lot more? They’re not out to get you. Sheesh, what are you - paranoid?” Pardon me, I have to go see a doctor now to get my eyes reattached - they just rolled out of my head. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![caligulashorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@caligulashorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulashorse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/35 "2009-05-17T23:13:03Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Maybe a better analogy would be to ask an 18 year old, 200 pound jock who had just been kicked in the shins by a third grader. You would reduce the unprovoked slaughter of thousands of americans to a shin kicking 9 year old? It’s thinking like this, under the clinton adminstration, that lead us to 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/36 "2009-05-17T23:18:50Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Looking back on 9/11/2001, yes, it was a shock and around 3,000 people were killed tragically. But from the standpoint of us as a nation, might we have been better off if we had done not nearly so much, or even nothing? Even leaving aside the Iraq war, and looking at everything everything else that came in reaction to the events of Sept. 11, including the “patriot” act, the dept. of homeland security, and even the Afghanistan war: could it all be characterized as an overreaction? > > Where would we be now if the government had done _nothing_ in response to 9/11 except rebuild and console the survivors? Does anybody suspect that we’d be better off? Hah. [I suggested as much at the time](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1602677&postcount=1): > [@spoke-](#): > > (9/12/2001) > > I know that the impulse is to respond militarily, with force and with a mighty vengeance. That’s my first reaction, too. But then I try to cool down and think things through. What would we accomplish? With a massive military assault on a nation or nations, would we wind up creating a whole new generation of simmering resentment, which would only lead to more terrorism down the road? And what of the fact that the nation where the Taliban were schooled (Pakistan) has nuclear capabilities? If we get into a cycle of violence, are we only increasing the risk of one day facing nuclear terrorism? > > It would be enormously difficult, and enormously counter-instinctive to turn our cheek as a nation, but should we do it? ---
**Author:** ![MarcinCiez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@MarcinCiez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcinCiez)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/37 "2009-05-17T23:23:55Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > “Those people who destroyed 2 of your largest and most important buildings, attacked your national military headquarters, tried to destroy the seat of one branch of your federal government, killed 3,000 of your citizens, and by their own admission, planned to do a lot more? They’re not out to get you. Sheesh, what are you - paranoid?” > > Pardon me, I have to go see a doctor now to get my eyes reattached - they just rolled out of my head. :rolleyes: This is the EXACT reason why I didn’t want to get into this - oh well. Before I continue, let me say this, before someone says otherwise. When I see the footage of what happened, I feel physically sick, I feel bad for all the victims, I would never wan’t such a devestation to happen again - anywhere. Back to it. The extreme left of thought (ie supporting the repressed (terrorists)) will NEVER be able to see or understand the side of the extreme right of thought (ie supporters of the US )\*. It’s like telling Hitler the good side of the Jews, and a Jew about the positives of Hitler\*\*. The attitude of “I’m right, and anything you say is wrong” just annoys me. \*(I’m neither… I can see both sided of the argument, agree/disagree on many arguments both sides have) \*\*Bad person in my mind ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/38 "2009-05-17T23:26:04Z")
Ok, you can say, “they’d like to get us” kind of like a pothead “would like to get a job,” but they are too lazy, too disorganized, too far away to do it. So, yes, taken literally, “they are out to get us,” but in practice they’re not that big of a threat. All the propaganda be damned. People may disagree with me on the definition of a “big threat” because Americans do not have much of a perspective on what threats are. This is the country where we are bombarded with proclamations of tragedy and denunciation of evil when a couple kids somewhere get hurt, because the media thinks their faces were photogenic. This is a country that has never been invaded, or faced famine, disease, and economic collapse that others see routinely. But even disregarding big-picture concerns, terrorism is simply much smaller than the day-to-day problems we face in America. Far smaller than murder, for one. (Which itself is smaller than car accidents, which themselves are far smaller than the things we typically suffer from.) In 2001, 3,000 people died from terrorism. In that year, the worst year for terrorism in our history, about 3x as many people died from murder. 100x as many people were killed from mundane brutality in the past 30 years than from terrorism. And people lack an apperciation of that. They lack perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/39 "2009-05-17T23:29:56Z")
To reiterate, if terrorists were to actually try, they could be very successful. They are simply. not. that. motivated. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751/40 "2009-05-17T23:43:43Z")
First of all, that’s one of the most common examples of faulty logic I see, even around here. “Y is worse than X, therefore X cannot be all that bad.” Secondly, you’re solving for factors that you have no possible way of knowing. How many extremists are willing to die to attack the US? Of them, how many are capable of _getting here_? Of them, how many have been stopped? How many plots have been foiled at any given stage, that we’ll never know about? Dismissing all this, and more, to reach your pre-desired conclusion is, well . . . not . . . surprising. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-dared-to-suggest-that-9-11-shouldnt-have-been-that-big-of-a-deal/496751.md?page=3)