# Has anyone ever done a GOOD job of mixing SF and porn? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 26, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380 "2006-05-26T22:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ryobserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@ryobserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryobserver)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/61 "2006-05-31T01:36:07Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Liquid Sky](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085852/) I’ve actually seen Liquid Sky (yes, in a theater). Trust me, it’s not porn. I think it was rated R; it certainly didn’t deserve a more severe rating. Was it SF? Yes, of marginal quality. Interesting premise, but the movie was at least an hour longer than the story justified. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/62 "2006-05-31T09:12:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve only read a couple of Gor books, but the wagons thing sounds familiar - it isn’t Players of…, is it? Tarl was fronting as a professional chess(analogue)-player in that one, if it helps. Close, but he was a bit-part player and sideshow hand in a small travelling theatre/fairground show group that had a resident Kaissa-playing “monster” actually the self-exiled supergrandmaster Scormus of Ar under a hood. _Players_ is pretty darned good, btw - the digressions-to-action ratio is lower than in many of the later books, and there is much that is played very well for grins. There are _similar_ incidents in some other books that I can think of: [ul]in _Nomads of Gor_, Harold of the Tuchuks has just aided the Wagon Peoples in storming the city of Turia, and while the action is going on, he contents himself with a young Turian woman under a wagon - but he is gentle about it and she expects to be enslaved once the battle is over. (Actually, in contrast to the later books, he sends her on her way and instructs her to tell anyone who asks that she is Harold the Tuchuk’s slave, but he says that this will not be true, so plainly he intends for her to go free.) [li]in _Slave Girl of Gor_, Judy Thorton has just been traded to Tup Ladletender, a tinker, and when it starts raining they take shelter under his cart, where he puts her to his service - but he is her new owner, not borrowing her.[/li][/ul] As I say, this sounds like one of the last books - _Mercenaries, Vagabonds_ or _Renegades_, all of which I’ve read but none very often. > [@scumpup](#): > > On the nosey! This is exactly why the Gor books are shit. And yet to many that is exactly where the Gor books’ chief values lies. _De gustibus…_ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/63 "2006-05-31T09:45:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > That’s certainly not from _Marauders_, which is set in Gor’s equivalent of Viking Scandinavia (Torvaldsland) and doesn’t involve any trade caravans or unmasking secret agents. I don’t recognise the incident, suggesting it’s from one of the books I’ve read less than the others (I have read all of them), but it’s certainly a Gorean-type incident, at least from one of the later books. Yeah, it’s definitely not “Maurauders of Gor.” Maybe “Mercenaries.” I think I threw in an IIRC when I mentioned the title, and I meant it. Marauders did have some pretty nice brief scenes, too … the captured village women getting bent over the steersmen’s seat and taken in front of their formerly free peers was one, and there was a feast description that included slavegirls bent over the feast table and used while the feast goes on around them. Maybe a couple of sentences out of the whole scene, but still, very strong imagery. > [@](#): > > In my experience Gor is not pornographic - I’ve read every one of them with the book held firmly in _both_ hands 😉 I think it’s a tribute to Norman’s skill in introducing those sexy slavegirl bits throughout the story that makes people THINK they are pornographic. > [@](#): > > Regrettably, his worst stylistic fault (out of many) is to rabbit on about his pet philosophy instead of getting on with the darned action. It’s the main reason why in, say, _Mercenaries of Gor_, about as much plot-advancement happens as would have sufficed for about a third of the (infinitely more readable) _Assassin of Gor_. There’s an easy solution to that … I just skip over the sections where it becomes clear that the protagonist is going to be raving about “negativistic, antibiological” feminist-type stuff and go on to the action. These sections tend to come in huge expository lumps. And Norman’s far from the only author who benefits from this reading technique. Whenever Robert Parker’s protagonist starts mooning over his relationships with his girlfriend (or in the Jess Stone stories, his alcoholism) I just skip over that section, because I know it won’t change the plot one bit and will be pretty much the same as the previous expository lump. Makes Parker and Norman MUCH more readable. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/64 "2006-05-31T09:49:23Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > On the nosey! This is exactly why the Gor books are shit. It’s exactly why a lot of people hate them. I think for many people these sections of the Gor novels were just too offensive to ignore. I also think that a lot of people who express dislike of the “pornographic” nature of the Gor novels are actually mostly upset about the Gorean philosophy. Which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/65 "2006-05-31T11:01:49Z")
> [@riker1384](#): > > Ooh, I get a chance to post the first good answer to a question. > > I give you [Lexx](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexx). Yeah, one long cock tease, hardly porn. Of everyone I know who watched it, I seem to be the only one who liked the lovely [Eva Habermann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Habermann) over [Xenia Seeberg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenia_Seeberg) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/66 "2006-05-31T12:23:14Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > It’s exactly why a lot of people hate them. I think for many people these sections of the Gor novels were just too offensive to ignore. I also think that a lot of people who express dislike of the “pornographic” nature of the Gor novels are actually mostly upset about the Gorean philosophy. Which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. And yet again, there are a shizzle-lizzle of people who subscribe to the philosophy. Amazingly, this includes an enormous number of women who aspire to be Gorean-style slaves (mostly without the liability to summary execution, of course, but as has been said elsewhere, in practical terms this tends to be a don’t-step-on-the-cracks-or-the-bears-will-get-you issue even on fictional Gor let alone a planet where there are severe legal repercussions to be considered), and I probably know of more Gorean slaves than Gorean Free Women. I know I personally went “Whu…?” when I found out about it, but it’s definitely out there. For that matter, a great deal of Gor-philosopher advocates get seriously ticked off at those who see only the bondage and slavery aspects, and would probably get on your case, **E\_C** , as much as have certain citizens hereabouts. They argue very properly that if you only want to play at tying up and beating, there is no shortage of available material. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/67 "2006-05-31T12:36:14Z")
The MIT Science Fiction Society (MITSFS) has a collection of SF porn that they normally keep hidden away. Even though I was (still am, arguably) a member, I didn’t know about it until I ssaw the photo they submitted for the yearbook one year – it was a picture of items from that collection. Interesting stuff, but I’ve never read any of it, and don’t kbnow if it’s any good. One thing that has happened as a result of the Internet is what I think of as “home-grown porn”. There are a lot of sites storing and making available literature people write themselves. This ranges from genuine literature on a small scale to fan fiction to outright porn catering to folks with specialized interest. There is a _lot_ of sf-based porn on the Internet, and it’s available in a variety of flavors, including plain vanilla. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/68 "2006-05-31T20:45:00Z")
For enjoyable amateur stuff, can I suggest Tanj’s Tales? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/69 "2006-06-01T15:27:31Z")
Oh, dear Og, no! Please! Not _Liquid Sky_! The OP asked for a _good_ mix of SF and porn. _Liquid Sky_ was SF, I suppose, but barely porn… and hands down the worst movie I ever saw: overlong, poorly-written, poorly-acted, and nonsensical. Jeez, it was bad. I saw it about 15 years ago and still shudder at the memory. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/70 "2006-06-03T03:08:52Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > And yet again, there are a shizzle-lizzle of people who subscribe to the philosophy. Amazingly, this includes an enormous number of women who aspire to be Gorean-style slaves (mostly without the liability to summary execution, of course, but as has been said elsewhere, in practical terms this tends to be a don’t-step-on-the-cracks-or-the-bears-will-get-you issue even on fictional Gor let alone a planet where there are severe legal repercussions to be considered), and I probably know of more Gorean slaves than Gorean Free Women. I know I personally went “Whu…?” when I found out about it, but it’s definitely out there. Perhaps it’s not so suprising when you consider that some of the Gor novels are very much like romance novels. Consider the plots of “Slave Girl of Gor,” “Dancer of Gor,” and “Kajira of Gor.” In all three, a woman is kidnapped and brought to Gor by slavers, where she encounters a man she is strangely attracted to, or who is strangely attracted to her. She is separated from him by circumstances of various kinds, and then wanders around having adventures but always mooning about that original guy she met, who’s also searching for her. The big happy ending occurs when the two are reunited and finally get around to admitting that they love one another. If that’s not a romance, I don’t know what is, and it’s a fair description of those three novels. So, if the Gor novels are romances, maybe a lot of women who read romances are “prepared” to like Gor novels. And other Gorean type stuff. > [@](#): > > For that matter, a great deal of Gor-philosopher advocates get seriously ticked off at those who see only the bondage and slavery aspects, and would probably get on your case, **E\_C** , as much as have certain citizens hereabouts. They argue very properly that if you only want to play at tying up and beating, there is no shortage of available material. 😛 I get along fine with Goreans as a general rule. I’m not a Gorean, and don’t pretend to be. I just like the Gor novels as fiction. They’re welcome to take the philosophy seriously if they want to. But I don’t seem them trying to argue it anywhere where people would give such a philosophy the waxing it deserves. Wouldn’t last five minutes on the Dope on Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/71 "2006-06-03T03:30:16Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Perhaps it’s not so suprising when you consider that some of the Gor novels are very much like romance novels. Consider the plots of “Slave Girl of Gor,” “Dancer of Gor,” and “Kajira of Gor.” In all three, a woman is kidnapped and brought to Gor by slavers, where she encounters a man she is strangely attracted to, or who is strangely attracted to her. She is separated from him by circumstances of various kinds, and then wanders around having adventures but always mooning about that original guy she met, who’s also searching for her. The big happy ending occurs when the two are reunited and finally get around to admitting that they love one another. > > If that’s not a romance, I don’t know what is, and it’s a fair description of those three novels. So, if the Gor novels are romances, maybe a lot of women who read romances are “prepared” to like Gor novels. And other Gorean type stuff. What, there’s no humiliation or breaking-and-training or slave orgasms? You sure these are Gor novels?! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/72 "2006-06-03T03:34:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, there’s no humiliation or breaking-and-training or slave orgasms? You sure these are Gor novels?! I’m sure you read the part about “adventures of various kinds” … ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380/73 "2006-06-03T07:54:05Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > there’s a Kurt Vonnegut quote along the lines that what SF and pornography have in common is not sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable universe. Kurt Vonnegut is also the author of “The Big Space Fuck,” a very tongue in cheek sendup of both genres simultaneously. It appeared in _Again, Dangerous Visions_, which also included the aforementioned “In the Barn” by Piers Anthony and “Time Travel for Pedestrians” which is about a past life regression on psychedelics while masturbating. “The Big Space Fuck” is pure satire about propagating the human race by filling a rocket with “jizzum” and shooting it into space. “In the Barn” was a bit sensational at the time for its explicit subhuman sex. The editor of the _Dangerous Visions_ books, Harlan Ellison, should be the first name mentioned for the convergence of sex and SF. But he often merges the two at some dark level where squeamish readers may not want to go. Not what I’d consider titillating, therefore doesn’t count as porn. Plenty of dark sex, not much fun sex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-done-a-good-job-of-mixing-sf-and-porn/358380.md?page=3)