# Has anyone ever reformed an abusive or inadequate significant other? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 1, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766 "2012-06-01T14:00:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/41 "2012-06-03T09:05:02Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > How are you guys defining change? > > The way I understand it, it should be obvious that you can change people. Here is an overly simplistic example: I asked my roommate to keep the TV volume at a lower at night. So far, the volume has been lower. > > Does this mean that he lowered the volume only because he wanted to lower the volume, and I was irrelevant? If he didn’t want to lower the volume, do you think there is no way I could have convinced him to do it? > > If you are saying that certain behaviors are impossible to change, then that’s more understandable. However, it sounds like you’re saying all change is impossible. Are you starting to understand that a person cannot change another person? Change is certainly possible, but the person must want to make the change. My ex-husband never wanted to make any changes, despite what he repeatedly said, and so he didn’t. He didn’t think he had a problem. It was us wimmen making him unhappy until we left him. Yes, he eventually died, but again, that was a change that no outside person made for him. He got that way all by himself. The roommate example is the same. If he didn’t think there was a problem on his end, he wouldn’t have wanted to change [the volume]. If he never made the change, because he himself had wanted to, he wouldn’t have, even if you threatened to move out and even if you really moved out. He wouldn’t have changed unless he wanted to. See how it works? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/42 "2012-06-03T11:31:42Z")
**Has anyone ever reformed an abusive or inadequate significant other?** In the history of the Universe? Personally, **I doubt it!** ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/43 "2012-06-03T12:09:14Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > **Lakai** , you did not change your roommate’s behavior. Your roommate was unaware that the tv volume they’d selected was too loud for you. Once you told him that it was too loud, his innate consideration caused him to turn down the volume and keep that in mind. > > His behavior did not change. Before and after your request, he was a minimally considerate person. > > Loud televisions happen. It’s difficult to tell under most circumstances that the volume you chose - within reason - might bother or distress someone else. You’re not aware, unless the person chooses to tell you, that it’s just too loud for them. > > Abuse is not the same as a loud television. There’s no instance where someone hits, shoves, belittles, slaps, threatens, insults, or frightens another person does not know that the other person is distressed. That’s what abuse does: it distresses the other person. That’s why abusers do these things: to distress the other person, put them in fear, cause them harm, and put them under the abuser’s power. > > The same goes for addiction. The addict knows that the things they do to get whatever they’re using are harmful, deceitful, mean, petty, irresponsible, and ugly. They know that. They may not admit it, but they know it. They do it, because it gets them what they want. > > So, there’s a fundamental difference between asking someone “Hey, that’s a little loud. Would you turn it down?” and saying “You do not ever get to hit me. Period. Do it, and I call the cops on my way out of here.” One is a reasonable request made in a reasonable situation, giving the other person information they didn’t have. The other is a statement that should never _have_ to be made, because hitting people is completely unacceptable in any relationship. Thank you for that explanation. From what I’ve read about batterer intervention programs, it appears that some abusers are not aware of the distress they are causing the other person. Most of the program is spent convincing them that their behavior is actually harmful. If an abuser goes through such a program, and changes his behavior because the program made him more aware of his abuse, would you consider that change from within or without? > [@legalsnugs](#): > > Are you starting to understand that a person cannot change another person? Change is certainly possible, but the person must want to make the change. My ex-husband never wanted to make any changes, despite what he repeatedly said, and so he didn’t. He didn’t think he had a problem. It was us wimmen making him unhappy until we left him. Yes, he eventually died, but again, that was a change that no outside person made for him. He got that way all by himself. > > The roommate example is the same. If he didn’t think there was a problem on his end, he wouldn’t have wanted to change [the volume]. If he never made the change, because he himself had wanted to, he wouldn’t have, even if you threatened to move out and even if you really moved out. He wouldn’t have changed unless he wanted to. See how it works? It seems like you’re making a schematic, but unpractical distinction in the meaning of “change”. I can agree that someone will only change if they want to change, but that does not mean they are not open to influence. It does not mean that my actions will have no effect on how others decide to behave. And if my actions do change how others behave, then I think it’s pointless to make the distinction that I’m not really changing them, and they are only changing themselves. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/44 "2012-06-03T17:43:50Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Thank you for that explanation. > > From what I’ve read about batterer intervention programs, it appears that some abusers are not aware of the distress they are causing the other person. Most of the program is spent convincing them that their behavior is actually harmful. > > If an abuser goes through such a program, and changes his behavior because the program made him more aware of his abuse, would you consider that change from within or without? Unless an abuser is mentally deficient or literally blind, they are aware they are harming someone when they strike someone. They are not uninformed. They are in denial about their personal responsibility to be a decent human being. It’s classic abusive behavior - blame the victim, and deny the harm. Programs intended to treat abusers spend much of their time dismantling this defense and getting the abuser to _admit_ that they are causing harm and to take responsibility for it, not _realize_ they are causing harm. An abuser who does not want to change won’t cooperate with their counselor, won’t be honest with themselves about their actions, and won’t admit to their responsibility. An abuser who does want to change - perhaps because they’ve finally realized it’s the only way to keep their spouse/job/freedom - will cooperate with the counselor, will be honest with themself, and will accept responsibility for their behavior. So, in that manner, yes, change is internally motivated. The problem for the people on the outside is that you not only can’t make someone change, you can’t even make them _want_ to change. Considering that many abuse victims end up dying at their abuser’s hands, that’s a losing proposition no matter how much you may love the person doing the abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/45 "2012-06-03T18:40:40Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Unless an abuser is mentally deficient or literally blind, they are aware they are harming someone when they strike someone. They are not uninformed. They are in denial about their personal responsibility to be a decent human being. It’s classic abusive behavior - blame the victim, and deny the harm. Programs intended to treat abusers spend much of their time dismantling this defense and getting the abuser to _admit_ that they are causing harm and to take responsibility for it, not _realize_ they are causing harm. > > An abuser who does not want to change won’t cooperate with their counselor, won’t be honest with themselves about their actions, and won’t admit to their responsibility. An abuser who does want to change - perhaps because they’ve finally realized it’s the only way to keep their spouse/job/freedom - will cooperate with the counselor, will be honest with themself, and will accept responsibility for their behavior. > > So, in that manner, yes, change is internally motivated. The problem for the people on the outside is that you not only can’t make someone change, you can’t even make them _want_ to change. Considering that many abuse victims end up dying at their abuser’s hands, that’s a losing proposition no matter how much you may love the person doing the abuse. I don’t think that striking someone necessarily means that you know the extent of the harm you’ve caused. If an abuser strikes his or her partner with his fist, and then denies striking them, then I would agree that they are refusing to admit the abuse. However, what usually happens is that abusers will admit to striking someone, but they’ll minimize the damage cause by their actions. In that case, I don’t see clear cut evidence that they realize what their behavior is doing. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/46 "2012-06-03T19:37:31Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t think so. I keep beating my wife, but no matter what, she still keeps nagging the shit out of me about my drinking and cocaine use. Some people just can’t be changed. So, do you promise to stop beating her when she stops deserving it? ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/47 "2012-06-03T21:02:19Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > … > It seems like you’re making a schematic, but unpractical distinction in the meaning of “change”. I can agree that someone will only change if they want to change, but that does not mean they are not open to influence. It does not mean that my actions will have no effect on how others decide to behave. And if my actions do change how others behave, then I think it’s pointless to make the distinction that I’m not really changing them, and they are only changing themselves. I agree that you can try to provide motivation for someone to elect to change, but often, changing to make someone else happy, rather than because he/she really wants to, seldom makes for a long-term solution. But heck, if you’re looking for encouragement to try to motivate someone to stop being an abuser or “inadequate” (whatever that means), go ahead. You sure don’t need the Straight Dope’s permission. Have you not mentioned your unhappiness before? What was the result? What else would you promise or threaten if a change was/was not forthcoming? If you have something new to try, go for it, if you want to. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But don’t be too disappointed if “change or I’ll leave” results in “you leave.” The odds are not on your side. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/48 "2012-06-04T00:16:29Z")
I guess my take on this is that people can be encouraged to change but almost always the amount needed is more than one person can do, and more comprehensive systems are needed to achieve it. For a start the person trying to help the person change may not really know whats needed - its one thing to know not to do something yourself, and often quite another to help someone else work out how not to do it. People referred to male family violence programs often change more when the referral is court mandated than when its voluntary, which kind of disagrees with the idea that ‘wanting to change’ is the most important part of the equation. The current thinking is the more important factors are generally a clear systemic response, reasonable lengths of involvement to get change in habits etc. Gondolfs research used to be the major reference, but I have been out of that area for a while. His argument is that a more important issue than ‘wanting’ is more whether they seem unable to, which applies to about 10% of referrals, and jail is pretty much the only option for them at this stage. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/49 "2012-06-04T00:57:40Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > I agree that you can try to provide motivation for someone to elect to change, but often, changing to make someone else happy, rather than because he/she really wants to, seldom makes for a long-term solution. > > But heck, if you’re looking for encouragement to try to motivate someone to stop being an abuser or “inadequate” (whatever that means), go ahead. You sure don’t need the Straight Dope’s permission. Have you not mentioned your unhappiness before? What was the result? What else would you promise or threaten if a change was/was not forthcoming? If you have something new to try, go for it, if you want to. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But don’t be too disappointed if “change or I’ll leave” results in “you leave.” The odds are not on your side. You’re making wild assumptions about my motivation for this topic. Please stop. If you don’t want to address my argument, then don’t. No need to make up personal attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/50 "2012-06-04T01:14:00Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Been a successful week then? First lunch with ODH, now dumping a loser. Yeah, we’re gonna keep mentioning it too. Cause it’s really cool. I’m not sure why you think a little bit of personal nastiness is A-OK, cause it’s not. Take any and all such gripes to the pit, not here. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/51 "2012-06-04T02:44:45Z")
What does inadequate mean in the sense of this topic? If we are talking about stuff like excessive gambling, smoking, drinking, drugging, shopping etc. Well sure I’ve seen plenty of people cool down with age and kids and reign in formally excessive behaviour. But they are still the same people basically, just more mature and restrained. So if you expect your heroin addict girlfriend to clean up and not even drink beer in a week…well you’e setting yourself up for dissapointment(common thing though!). If on the other hand you expect her to slowly stop using, or reduce it, over the course of years but still indulge occasionally yea sure thats very common(but not a sure thing either). As a rule people do change, but slowly and logically. People don’t make wild leaps of nonsensical transformation, which is what many “changers” expect and demand. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/52 "2012-06-04T04:10:36Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > I’m not sure why you think a little bit of personal nastiness is A-OK, cause it’s not. Take any and all such gripes to the pit, not here. Not nastiness at all - Eve had brunch with ODH (Olivia de Havilland), which is the subject of another thread, and is free of a bad relationship. I read it as big ups for Eve on the ODH thing. BIG UPS from me too! Truly cool. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/53 "2012-06-04T04:10:48Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Unless an abuser is mentally deficient or literally blind, they are aware they are harming someone when they strike someone. They are not uninformed. They are in denial about their personal responsibility to be a decent human being. It’s classic abusive behavior - blame the victim, and deny the harm. Programs intended to treat abusers spend much of their time dismantling this defense and getting the abuser to _admit_ that they are causing harm and to take responsibility for it, not _realize_ they are causing harm. > > An abuser who does not want to change won’t cooperate with their counselor, won’t be honest with themselves about their actions, and won’t admit to their responsibility. An abuser who does want to change - perhaps because they’ve finally realized it’s the only way to keep their spouse/job/freedom - will cooperate with the counselor, will be honest with themself, and will accept responsibility for their behavior. > > So, in that manner, yes, change is internally motivated. The problem for the people on the outside is that you not only can’t make someone change, you can’t even make them _want_ to change. Considering that many abuse victims end up dying at their abuser’s hands, that’s a losing proposition no matter how much you may love the person doing the abuse. There are different kinds and contexts of person to person abuse, per the point I was making upthread, in many scenarios it’s really not quite like alcoholism or drug abuse where you have person with this overiding impulse to do “X” (ie beat up or yell at people) which they cannot resist. Abusers can be shut down in a heart beat if the victims refuse to cooperate or retaliate with such force the abuser is taking real risks to indulge themselves in this behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/54 "2012-06-04T04:18:59Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What does inadequate mean in the sense of this topic? > > If we are talking about stuff like excessive gambling, smoking, drinking, drugging, shopping etc. Well sure I’ve seen plenty of people cool down with age and kids and reign in formally excessive behaviour. But they are still the same people basically, just more mature and restrained. So if you expect your heroin addict girlfriend to clean up and not even drink beer in a week…well you’e setting yourself up for dissapointment(common thing though!). If on the other hand you expect her to slowly stop using, or reduce it, over the course of years but still indulge occasionally yea sure thats very common(but not a sure thing either). > > As a rule people do change, but slowly and logically. People don’t make wild leaps of nonsensical transformation, which is what many “changers” expect and demand. I’ve seen this as well, bus suspect its an internal maturity thing rather than an external ‘someone influenced me to change’ thing. So if your 21 year old significant other drinks a little too much and cheats on you, it’s possible that when s/he is forty s/he will be a happily married responsible suburban soccer parent. But I’ve never seen it work out with the same set of people, it’s like the maturity has to come with a change in partners to really be effective. It’s very funny to see my irresponsible boyfriend of thirty years ago be a responsible adult…but it isn’t me he is married to. And thirty years would have been too long to wait for him to grow up (even had he been willing to put up with me). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/55 "2012-06-04T11:14:08Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What does inadequate mean in the sense of this topic? > > If we are talking about stuff like excessive gambling, smoking, drinking, drugging, shopping etc. Excessive gambling, smoking, drinking, drugging, shopping etc according to who? If I enjoy gambling, smoking, drinking, drugging, shopping, etc than maybe I’d rather be with someone who enjoys those qualities along with everything else about me rather than someone who wants to remake me to suit their ideals. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/56 "2012-06-04T14:52:22Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > You’re making wild assumptions about my motivation for this topic. Please stop. > > If you don’t want to address my argument, then don’t. No need to make up personal attacks. I apologize for making an assumption, but there was certainly no attack. Just hoped to spare you some unnecessary pain. I hope you eventually get the answer you want. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766/57 "2012-06-04T15:29:48Z")
But true change really needs to be driven from within. Change in character, not change in tv volume. When you attempt to change another person with your actions, you are moving to a ‘parent teacher’ dynamic. Which is okay, if you’re aiming to parent or teach. But if you’re looking to partner, this shift is the kiss of death. You may find it’s impossible to be both partner **and** parent. You may, in fact, create change, but the cost may be partnering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-reformed-an-abusive-or-inadequate-significant-other/623766.md?page=2)